At Work: Women Against Women
 

This was brought up in another thread a few weeks ago but never really got started, and I'd like to make it a bit more generic than the original question. Why is it that often that in professional environments, the biggest impediments to women at work are other women? Sure, there is the usual crap women have to put up with from men, not to mention that especially among some older men, the really prefer to work with just other guys, but you would think that women would be sympathetic to other women about advancing in their career.

My wife is an attorney in a BigLaw firm, and several times in her career, she has run into Black Widows or Alpha Female Wolves who feel the need to absolutely destroy every other female in their group, or at least have them submissive to them. They don't do this to men, but they absolutely do this to all other women. If this type enters a group and there is a senior woman, they will also do their best to drive that woman out. Is this basic biology? Are they even aware they are doing it? Why does this occur? I'm looking for some ideas here, as well as other observations of this sort of behavior.

My wife is pretty immune to this type of behavior, having dealt with it earlier in her career, but since she's now older, younger attorneys seek her out about how to deal with these types. Her advice has been to fight back and don't accept it, because this sort of bully usually backs down, but when they're in a position of power, they can do a lot of damage to you, and she has seen careers ruined for no good reason other than the fact that these women want no other women who are a threat to them around.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I think they only do it to other women, because they can manipulate men differently, and dont need to pound them into submission. Think about your typical alpha-male type man in the same situation, does he treat his male colleagues the same as he does the women? Probably not, Id bet, and is much more harsh towards the other males around him, pounding them into submission, but treats the women with different tactics.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I don't know the reasons, I just find it peculiar that this phenomena usually isn't discussed when there are discussions about why men earn more than women and why a large percent of CEOs are men. This is the main factor IMO, thus whenever women ask me about career advice I recommend them to work in companies where a large portion of the employees are men. I also advice them to avoid companies with many women in management. This is very un-PC, but I have seen tons of situations confirming my view and very few contradicting it. Where there i.e. is 80% women, the women end up being discriminated, not the men.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

Women in corporate America subconsciously / consciously realize that there is an unspoken female quota in the upper echelon. So it only makes sense to view other women as a threat as they all compete for very few spots.

-Al

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

This is not an American phenomen. It is in many different cultures.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I hate working with women, and so does my gf. I notice this behavior all the time and I don't see it nearly as much amongst men. It's pretty disgusting, really. I'm not saying men doing have disgusting habits at work. But being a man, I think I can handle the things men do at work. With some of the petty crap women pull, I almost feel like I can't even say anything about it or call it out because it's sort of an under-the-surface battle that needs to be worked out by them. I try to not get involved, and usually get a good laugh watching them destroy themselves.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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This is not an American phenomen. It is in many different cultures.

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Different corporate cultures? I'd think it's more pronounced in say Japan and possibly in European nations. OP seemed to address corporate America.

-Al

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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This is not an American phenomen. It is in many different cultures.

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Different corporate cultures? I'd think it's more pronounced in say Japan and possibly in European nations. OP seemed to address corporate America.

-Al

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Yeah, different corporate cultures. In many European countries the corporate culture is very different from America. I think this is a biological phenomenen since it occurs in so many different situations (also non-business), so best is to acknowledge and act accordingly.

For women: try to find an environment with mostly men.
For men: realize that most women at work are better than their reputation.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I think it extends to other environments.

My wife is a speech pathologist. She was in the education school for her bachelors and masters. In her program there were something like 23 women and 2 men. She also was an English lit major as an undergrad, which is mostly females I think but not so extreme. She couldn't believe the cattyness and gossip and backstabbing stuff that the women would do in her program. It was absolutely nothing like what I dealt with in math and even economics.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

MrMon,
I think women in the work place is an extention of women in social circles. Ever walk up to a group of women and start talking to one in particular? It doesn't take long before the others are vying for your attention and ready to throw their friends under the bus because they view them as "the competition" and no longer as friends. If they can't have your attention, they don't want their friends to have it either. Same in business, if they can't be top dog or in a good position, they can't stand to let someone else be top dog.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

First, I think men notice a woman being a bully more than they notice a man being a bully, irrespective of who that person is being a bully too. I mean, in your original example, I'm sure your wife has encountered Alpha males who like to dominate all other males - it's just not commented on because this is assumed to be more typical male behavior.

Second, a woman has often had to fight for a position of power, and there is an element of 'if I've had it hard I don't see why you should have it any easier'.

Third, the corporate environment attracts strong women. There seems a lot less butting of heads in female dominated careers.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

This happens in medicine as well. Female nurses are terrible to female doctors- much nicer to men. I also feel that female doctors have to get into pissing contests about being super-anal and super on top of things, because if they are more laid back they will be viewed as weak; which does not apply nearly as much to the male doctors.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

A couple of counterarguemnts to what's been said so far:

1. I really don't see this sort of behavior in men. Sure, there are alpha males who want other to be submissive to them, but they don't drive out every other guy in the office, not that that would be an option. Guys have a way of doing it that forms a team, some women seem to be lacking in that ability.

2. Guys that dominate seem to demand that everyone submit to them. Women rarely demand the men be submissive or disappear, only other women. Why?

3. There does seem to be some biological connection for male attention in this behavior. I'm going to have to look and see if anyone's ever studied it. If they haven't, here's a great research area for some grad student.

Note: A quick search of Google reveals it has a name, Queen Bee Syndrome, but doesn't seem too well studied in a serious way, although anecdotally, everyone recognizes it.

3. It's definitely not culture dependent, as it's noted in articles from Spain, Africa, and India.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

Reminds me of a few months ago when my supervisor (male) was going to hire a female to do a similar job as myself (and 3 other males and 1 old female), and the receptionist, and secretary (24 & 21 years old respectively), begged my supervisor not to hire the girl (and of course he submitted to them because he's weak and hired this dude who sucks at the job).

WWWWTTTTFFFF!?!?!?!?!? NICE. They CERTAINLY didn't want a young, even average looking, professional to have to "compete" with. Not that it would have possibly helped our company's bottom line or anything...that just doesn't matter to these girls.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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This happens in medicine as well. Female nurses are terrible to female doctors- much nicer to men. I also feel that female doctors have to get into pissing contests about being super-anal and super on top of things, because if they are more laid back they will be viewed as weak; which does not apply nearly as much to the male doctors.

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I am curious if you have seen this first hand.

I have been nursing for 12 years and never have seen this. I would say the ratio of of male to female doctors that I work with is equal. (I work in OB and pediatrics)
Yes, occasionally there are personalities that do not mesh but it is not based on gender. Overall, at least in my experience, there has been a great balance between professional and social interaction between the nursing staff and physicians.
Maybe my situation is unusual.


I will say that when I came out of school we were told, "Nurses eat their young". Basically stating you really had to prove yourself to the established nursing staff. I never ran into it personally but I know a few who had.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

Mrs. Utah,

I have definitely seen this first hand. I was ALWAYS treated much better as a physician than my female colleagues. I think your situation is not the norm because you work in OB and peds, which are likely to have more female physicians. Also, it is definitely true that a lot (not all, but a significant number) are super-anal/bitchy because they have a chip on their shoulder that men don't have.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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Mrs. Utah,

I have definitely seen this first hand. I was ALWAYS treated much better as a physician than my female colleagues. I think your situation is not the norm because you work in OB and peds, which are likely to have more female physicians. Also, it is definitely true that a lot (not all, but a significant number) are super-anal/bitchy because they have a chip on their shoulder that men don't have.

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I find this so interesting because I have never seen it, or maybe never noticed it. I agree that generally OB and peds are more heavily weighted in women but I do work with a pretty even mix.
The male docs are more likely to hang around the desk and be very chatty whereas the female docs will leave or head to a call room. At times the majority of my interaction is over the phone.
I will say I have run into a handful of female physicians that seem to have that "chip" on their shoulder.

I will have to start asking the physicians that I work with what they have run across, I am very curious.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

The VA nursing leadership told the head of Medicine there that they in particular were tougher on the female residents and interns. My female coworkers seemed to have run ins with nurses who never gave me problems. I've seen female interns and nurses get into altercations about petty crap that I doubt I would have gotten involved with. I think it's pretty well recognized, at least around here.

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This only proves what women and education don't mix! they belong at home taking care of children like the Lord intended.

The moment a woman gets a little power/education she becomes competitive. The moment a woman becomes competitive is the moment she stops being a woman and becomes more like a man.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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This only proves what women and education don't mix! they belong at home taking care of children like the Lord intended.

The moment a woman gets a little power/education she becomes competitive. The moment a woman becomes competitive is the moment she stops being a woman and becomes more like a man.

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Women know your limits!

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

why is it that whenever a chick walks by that is hot and dressed sexy, all the other women have to remind eachother that she is a whore?

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

A few theories/guesses.

1- from birth, men are socialized for competition, and understand that there's a difference between competition and having a slightly adversarial relationship with somebody and just flat hating them. I can compete with another dude and not have it get personal.

2- What Al says.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I know the popular theory among academia/feminists is that men are socialized to work in teams and women are not, but I'm pretty sure that's just not true. Watch any group of small children, like two or three years-old, and watch how the boys don't really care who they play with, but the girls very early on develop a hierarchy that is exclusionary. There is always an "in" crowd among girls, even at a young age when they couldn't have possibly been taught that behavior. Little girls will tell each other "If you're MY friend, then you can't be HER friend." Little boys almost never do this. They may exclude, but they do so in a different way. In fact, the excluded girls often go and play with the boys, where they are happily accepted.

It's something hardwired into certain girls brains. I don't know what it is, but it's there. Rare is the preschool classroom that doesn't have a Queen Bee.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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1. I really don't see this sort of behavior in men. Sure, there are alpha males who want other to be submissive to them, but they don't drive out every other guy in the office, not that that would be an option. Guys have a way of doing it that forms a team, some women seem to be lacking in that ability.

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That is probably the key. Imagine alpha male working in an office full of women, when beta male suddenly encroaches on his territory. I don't think his behavior would be any different to an alpha female in an office full of men.

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2. Guys that dominate seem to demand that everyone submit to them. Women rarely demand the men be submissive or disappear, only other women. Why?

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I'm not so sure. My experience with alpha males has been that they are nice as pie around women.

However, I'm not really disagreeing with you on the whole, I just think women v. women, although probably real, is also a pretty small effect and tends to be magnified in men's eyes. I hear it occasionally used to support arguments about the glass ceiling, when there are far more important factors explaining that effect.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

This may be one of those conflicts generated because our culture, technology and civilization have advanced so far, so fast, in relation to our ability to evolve genetically.

Think about Captain Kirk. He doesn't demand anything. He just matter-of-factly says this is what's going to happen, and off everyone goes. There's a certain undefinable element to being a natural leader that is instantly recongnizable and absolutely cannot be learned or coached.

Humans have been evolving within patriach-dominated groups for a million years. It doesn't seem ridculous to assume we would wind up with a natural synergy between our group dynamics and hard-wired individual disposition in which certain males just naturally fall into the alpha role.

Captain Kirk just knows he's going to rise up the ranks, as does everyone around him, so there's no need for him to get nasty or vicious. For everyone else, male or female, it's a struggle where only the strong and cunning survive.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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I know the popular theory among academia/feminists is that men are socialized to work in teams and women are not, but I'm pretty sure that's just not true. Watch any group of small children, like two or three years-old, and watch how the boys don't really care who they play with, but the girls very early on develop a hierarchy that is exclusionary. There is always an "in" crowd among girls, even at a young age when they couldn't have possibly been taught that behavior. Little girls will tell each other "If you're MY friend, then you can't be HER friend." Little boys almost never do this. They may exclude, but they do so in a different way. In fact, the excluded girls often go and play with the boys, where they are happily accepted.

It's something hardwired into certain girls brains. I don't know what it is, but it's there. Rare is the preschool classroom that doesn't have a Queen Bee.

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In general little girls are always thinking about 3 steps ahead in any social situation. Whereas little boys are completely oblivious to that stuff (and a lot of big boys) but competing in other areas like who can throw a rock the farthest or something.

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I just want to say this is a good thread and I'm disappointed more people (men and women) aren't posting their thoughts.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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I just want to say this is a good thread and I'm disappointed more people (men and women) aren't posting their thoughts.

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Well, thanks for sharing that, pdb! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Someone will come along and explain this better, but women's way of handling each other at work is really no different than the relationships they have out of work. Only the venue is different. I always say "all women hate all other women", and while clearly an exaggeration, it isn't too far off. Obv the reason for this as has already been stated is viewing other women as their competition, but I don't see this in males whatsoever. After all, there is a reason there's no male version of "Heathers" and no female version of "Swingers".

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I cant take ideas like this seriously because its all based on anecdotal experience.

Is there any scientific data to back the hypothesis?

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

This is pretty simple. Men do not compete with eachother because men just fall in line and the lesser males take position under the Alpha males. Generally, two even two alpha males will not challenge eachother and if they think they are equals, they will just act as such.

With women, its all about being competitive.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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This is pretty simple. Men do not compete with eachother because men just fall in line and the lesser males take position under the Alpha males. Generally, two even two alpha males will not challenge eachother and if they think they are equals, they will just act as such.

With women, its all about being competitive.

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But even with women that are best friends, when they arent competing for anyone, will make tons of catty remarks behind eachothers backs. I dont think this is just a workplace phenomenon.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

Another reason is that women are trained to grab one man, while men seize multiple women. Because of this, women are more competitive to get the best man. While the alpha men just choose whatever women they want, and the less males fight for scraps.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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This is pretty simple. Men do not compete with eachother because men just fall in line and the lesser males take position under the Alpha males. Generally, two even two alpha males will not challenge eachother and if they think they are equals, they will just act as such.

With women, its all about being competitive.

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But even with women that are best friends, when they arent competing for anyone, will make tons of catty remarks behind eachothers backs. I dont think this is just a workplace phenomenon.

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Yes, it is not a workplace thing, its just human nature.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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I know the popular theory among academia/feminists is that men are socialized to work in teams and women are not, but I'm pretty sure that's just not true. Watch any group of small children, like two or three years-old, and watch how the boys don't really care who they play with, but the girls very early on develop a hierarchy that is exclusionary. There is always an "in" crowd among girls, even at a young age when they couldn't have possibly been taught that behavior.

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The environment affects both nature and nurture. The selection criteria is determined by the environment. If men are more likely to be put into groups as academia suggests, then men are more likely to be selected for based upon how well they work within those groups. The socialization environment therefore doesn't just nurture the individual afterbirth, but also selects the individual's nature before birth.

Mens DNA is passed on if they work well in groups, womens is passed on if they are hot. Men ignore their bad behavior if they are hot. Its no wonder that they have no social skills.

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"Mens DNA is passed on if they work well in groups, womens is passed on if they are hot. Men ignore their bad behavior if they are hot. Its no wonder that they have no social skills."

Dude, most men I see will stick it in anything that moves. Too bad, maybe if they didnt their wouldnt be so many ugly chicks running around.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

I questioned whether or not women are more catty with eachother based on the low probability of physical confrontation.

At work, if a guy screws me over to such an extent that I find it distracting to my job performance, I'd pretty much confront him outside the office, and get physical if need be. This seems counter-productive, of course. But I think it's natural for many males to feel this way.

With women, there is such a small small chance of GETTING YOUR ASS BEAT in the parking garage after work, that they feel they can get away with other petty attacks.

Yay, nay? And since men "can't" fight women, it's all up to the women to defend themselves physically (which almost none are genetically inclined to do). In an extreme example, lets say it was as common in our society for men to hit women as it is men to hit men...if that were the case, and a man saw a woman belittling another female office worker, he could go up and get in her face and it may not happen again. Of course this just isn't how it is in Western culture.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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nay?

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Perhaps the guys in my office are constantly beating one another up in the parking garage and I just don't know about it, but I somehow doubt it. In most corporate environments if you physically attack someone, either on or off the premises, you've just played directly into your opponents hands, since you're probably going to lose your job.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

Interesting thread. All I have to add is that I've done a lot of different jobs, and I've had a lot of different bosses, and quite a few of them were women, and I can only think of one who wasn't complete hell to work for.

I think the Captain Kirk analogy is a good one. I've never met a single woman who was a natural leader. I've worked with several female rafting guides. Their skills were top notch, and they were respected, but none of them could take charge on the river. They could tell you what to do, but they couldn't lead. A good leader is in everyones head - he knows everyones strengths and weaknesses and thus places them in a situation so they have a small chance of stuffing up, and makes them feel good about where they've been placed. From my experience women can't do this.

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nay?

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Perhaps the guys in my office are constantly beating one another up in the parking garage and I just don't know about it, but I somehow doubt it. In most corporate environments if you physically attack someone, either on or off the premises, you've just played directly into your opponents hands, since you're probably going to lose your job.

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I think the idea is that it's one of those things like nuclear war. It rarely ever (or hopefully never) happens, but the threat is still out there. And that makes a difference.

Re: At Work: Women Against Women
 

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I questioned whether or not women are more catty with eachother based on the low probability of physical confrontation.

At work, if a guy screws me over to such an extent that I find it distracting to my job performance, I'd pretty much confront him outside the office, and get physical if need be. This seems counter-productive, of course. But I think it's natural for many males to feel this way.

With women, there is such a small small chance of GETTING YOUR ASS BEAT in the parking garage after work, that they feel they can get away with other petty attacks.

Yay, nay? And since men "can't" fight women, it's all up to the women to defend themselves physically (which almost none are genetically inclined to do). In an extreme example, lets say it was as common in our society for men to hit women as it is men to hit men...if that were the case, and a man saw a woman belittling another female office worker, he could go up and get in her face and it may not happen again. Of course this just isn't how it is in Western culture.

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Yay.

Its similar to the way people talk [censored], and say things they would never dare say in person, over the internet - behind their computer. They know nothing is going to happen to them, so they have nothing to hold them back. Similarly women know they can basicaly do/say anything and still have no worry about getting hurt.