2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

2/4 B&M, 10 handed, loose & passive

Villain (SB) is old guy who is pretty loose preflop but pretty reasonable afterwards.

Preflop: Hero is Button with T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 limps, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks

Flop (7 players, 7 SB): K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets, 2 calls, Hero raises, everyone calls

Turn (4 players, 7.5 BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
checked to Hero who bets, SB raises, 2 folds, Hero calls

River (2 players, 11.5 BB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3bets, Hero 4bets...


Was preflop too loose? I don't think SSHE would recommend playing this hand but I'm thinking I can get in fairly cheap here with 7 players (BB never raises preflop but SB is capable of doing this). Are suited 3 gappers ok to play here?

Flop I had trouble counting my outs. I sorta counted 1 for my Ten, maybe 1 for my Six, 1.5 for my backdoor flush draw and maybe 0.5 for my backdoor straight draw so I'm thinking maybe 4 outs. I'm already getting 10:1 so I'm going to continue. I figure a raise here is best so I can take a free card if I need it. But can anyone find a fold here?

Turn I'm thinking my trips is good until I'm checkraised; now I'm thinking SB perhaps has straight or trips with a better kicker. I think a call here is ok cuz I still have lottsa outs for my boat.

River I think my original raise is ok, I'm crushing trips and straights, right? I think my 4bet is probably retarded because at this point SB is telling me my boat isn't the biggest.

Comments?

Gclueless36cents/hournoobG

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

PF is fine IMO, but i usually dont even bother peeling the flop here in an unraised pot. if the pot is raised PF this is an easy peel/raise. anyone disagree? i can see why some people would peel (some pot odds, position) while others wouldnt (pot odds not great plus reverse implied odds)

that said, once you got there you put the right amt of action in.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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that said, once you got there you put the right amt of action in.

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This is live so a 3bet on the river usually means "no, seriously, my hand is better than yours"; are you still ok with my 4bet?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

I don't play this preflop.

On the flop, I can't imagine folding. I agree, you've got at least 4 outs, so you've got immediate pot odds in the nice 10 SB pot, and you close the action. There's also a chance you're ahead. So, a peel's gotta be +EV. And given this particular loose-passive game, the free card play seems reasonable, too.

I think the turn is fine.

On the river, I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward the 4bet. Your hand is well disguised thanks to your flop raise and the fact that 10-6s is junk, so the SB could easily be married to a straight here, or pushing 9-9. Surely he would've raised K-K preflop. K-10 or 10-9 require the case 10. Was it a 4bet cap?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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I don't play this preflop.

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besides the fact that poker books tell you not to, why not OTB in a passive game?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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that said, once you got there you put the right amt of action in.

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This is live so a 3bet on the river usually means "no, seriously, my hand is better than yours"; are you still ok with my 4bet?

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This 3-bet might mean "No, my straight beats your 3 Tens" or "My AT beats your KQ or QT." 4-bet for value here unless you're up against the tightest rock ever.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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I don't play this preflop.

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besides the fact that poker books tell you not to, why not OTB in a passive game?

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Because it has little value, and the price isn't good enough. If you hit the flush, you'll have only a 10-high flush. It's a 3-gapper, which has almost no straight-draw value. As a 2 pair hand, it's weak. And as a top pair hand, it's extremely weak, way below average.

So, even when you do connect with it, you'll frequently lose anyway. I therefore don't think it's worth playing getting 5.5-1, particularly since there's a small chance one of the blinds could raise. If I could get in for a half-bet in the small blind, sure, sign me up.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

Because it has little value, and the price isn't good enough. If you hit the flush, you'll have only a 10-high flush. It's a 3-gapper, which has almost no straight-draw value. As a 2 pair hand, it's weak. And as a top pair hand, it's extremely weak, way below average.

So, even when you do connect with it, you'll frequently lose anyway. I therefore don't think it's worth playing getting 5.5-1, particularly since there's a small chance one of the blinds could raise. If I could get in for a half-bet in the small blind, sure, sign me up.

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you pretty much described all small suited connectors.

do you fold 56s, 67s here as well, becuase they only make baby flushes?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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do you fold 56s, 67s here as well, becuase they only make baby flushes?

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No. Those are no-gappers and therefore hold significantly more value than 3 gappers.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

raising the flop is pretty bad.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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raising the flop is pretty bad.

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Why?

I normally wouldn't raise this here on a typical 4 outer such as a gutshot with no pair. But in this case I have a pair which could improve to trips or two pair, plus there are a bunch of cards that could come on the turn (any heart, 7, 8 or 9) where I'd like to get a free card. Still bad?

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

I put him on a straight that hasn't given up yet (after he was in charge on the turn, why would he suspect a 6 made you a boat?).

Only calling your flop raise with 2P makes sense from a bad, easily scared player, but not from a halfway decent or a bad but aggressive one. 2P is at risk, can drive out live draws with a 3-bet, and should not be pussing out because you might have flopped a straight.

Plus, don't forget that there are 16 outstanding QJ hands, versus 3 KT, 3 T9, and 3 99. Since I'm downgrading the chance of his flop play with 2P, I think he has the straight somewhere around 70% of the time, plus around 7% 99. Looks pretty good.

If this were capped at 4 heads-up, like most online games, I'd cap easily. With unlimited raises, I'd give it one more, make a crying call if he goes to 5, but very much expecting him to call the 4-bet with QJ and swear at me for hitting such a crappy hand.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

As far as the free card raise, I think you should do it only some of the time, like 1/4. You will get similar flops frequently, and even bad players will notice if you're frequently showing strength followed by weakness on the later streets, and start defending against your free card even without consciously realizing that's what they're doing.

As far as playing T6s for a whole bet, yeah, Jojo is right, don't do it. It has unfavorable equity even against a very loose range for opponents, plus you have to pay rake and tip. I'm pretty sure the edge I have over my opponents is not going to overcome this.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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PF is fine IMO, but i usually dont even bother peeling the flop here in an unraised pot.

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Blah. If you're going to play this preflop, you need to continue with middle pair for 1 SB getting 11:1 on the flop.

-McGee

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

I would fold pf. This hand is really weak and I would guess (should run equity calculations though) that is -EV. From sb I would play.


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raising the flop is pretty bad.

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Why?

I normally wouldn't raise this here on a typical 4 outer such as a gutshot with no pair. But in this case I have a pair which could improve to trips or two pair, plus there are a bunch of cards that could come on the turn (any heart, 7, 8 or 9) where I'd like to get a free card. Still bad?

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Your draw is weaker than a gutshot (a hit gutshot on a non-flush, non-paired board is strong, while two pair or trips may still be behind), and you would like to see the turn for a heart or one of your straight cards. The turn has more value than the river.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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raising the flop is pretty bad.

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Why?

I normally wouldn't raise this here on a typical 4 outer such as a gutshot with no pair. But in this case I have a pair which could improve to trips or two pair, plus there are a bunch of cards that could come on the turn (any heart, 7, 8 or 9) where I'd like to get a free card. Still bad?

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i agree that raising on the flop is questionable--the only thing going for it is the possibility of getting a free card on the turn, but you also risk being reraised by SB...

by itself, raising will not drive out anyone as by the time play gets to you there are 3 others that have already put money in the pot in this round, plus you mentioned the table is loose, passive except for SB, who is leading the action--there are 3 cards on the flop that are in the "play zone"---that is, cards that are most likely to be in the hands of your opponents that put in money pre-flop, and a straight is a real possibility--so figure 3 others have connected with this flop somehow, perhaps top pair weak kicker, gut shot straight draw with or without a paired card, or middle/bottom pair drawing with a good kicker...and as for considering the value of your raise, with 3 others and someone else leading the betting, odds are you not ahead right now, or if you ahead its very probable you pair of T's will not win unimprove (reverse negative odds)...and your draw to a flush is weak...i would put you as having more like 6 outs, (2 T's, 6's and a bdfd, i don't think any of those outs are tainted much) but with 6 out of 47, you odds of improving are 8 to 1, and your 2nd bet put in will get only 3 to 1 odds (marginal value)--thus the raise does not have positive marginal expectation...

just calling is better play imho, unless you have some additional table reads that says you can buy a free card here...

fwiw, i would have capped on the river also---why not, it's only $4 more you stand to lose...

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

You are going to lose a lot of money playing starting hands like that in a limit game. Position and pot odds cannot justify calling pre-flop. JoJoDiego hit the nail on the head with his comments and I also agree with Babar about the flop raise. You got very lucky on this particular hand. It will not continue. Sorry if this offends you or others, but I think you should know.

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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You are going to lose a lot of money playing starting hands like that in a limit game. Position and pot odds cannot justify calling pre-flop. JoJoDiego hit the nail on the head with his comments and I also agree with Babar about the flop raise. You got very lucky on this particular hand. It will not continue. Sorry if this offends you or others, but I think you should know.

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lol

Re: 2/4 B&M - Are you trying to tell me my boat has a leak in it #1?
 

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You are going to lose a lot of money playing starting hands like that in a limit game. Position and pot odds cannot justify calling pre-flop. JoJoDiego hit the nail on the head with his comments and I also agree with Babar about the flop raise. You got very lucky on this particular hand. It will not continue. Sorry if this offends you or others, but I think you should know.

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hummm, well in the OP's defense, i will say this hand is not all together bad to play here...and certainly if he can learn to play these hands well he can make up his starting disadvantage post flop and ultimately, gain experience enough to become a very good player capable of making a silk purse from difficult hands like this...

and certainly, this hand could alter the OP's perception by the other players...but except for the old guy here, it may be wasted on the passive weaks around the table.