Cheating in sports
 

There's a really interesting article on Salon right now. King Kaufman interviews Derek Zumsteg, author of "The Cheaters Guide to Baseball." Here's a link. One excerpt from the interview:

[ QUOTE ]

One of the things that baseball's going to have to face is the same thing the Olympics have had to face, and every other competitive sport. It's that the advances in training and medicine technology allow players to do things that they would not be able to do normally, and in some cases you say they're good, like Tommy John surgery.

But players using HGH [human growth hormone], for instance, is considered performance-enhancing drugs and cheating. But then you're just replacing the normal level of hormones that decrease over time. That's clearly a little strange.

[/ QUOTE ]

This captures a lot of how I feel these days about things like steroids and so forth; it just seems like a relatively arbitary line drawn between what types of technology/nutrition are going to be accepted, and what aren't.

Anyway, mostly I just thought it was a read people would enjoy , but I'm curious if anybody else has similar attitudes.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

If athletes want to shorten there life by taking steroids let them

Re: Cheating in sports
 

I am actually curious to see what sports are like in 20 years. My guess is they won't resemble sports today at all. The NFL is pretty much way beyond anything normal as it is.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maury Wills provides a great example. When he was in his prime and stealing bases like crazy, teams would water the base paths, they would put sand out there so he couldn't get a good jump, they'd do anything they could to make it harder for Maury Wills to run.

[/ QUOTE ]

First for some reason this kind of reminds me of when the Masters lengthened the course to try and handicap Tiger. Unfortunately they were ignorant and forgot that if they lengthened it for Tiger they lengthened it for the rest of the field therefore it didn't work. They should have just put in a "Tiger tee box."


Here's a question: If some players are taking HGH/Steroids and some aren't it is obviously cheating b/c the playing field isn't level, this is clear. So if everyone, 100% of the league uses HGH/Steroids is it now cheating?

*note* I am not condoning anything, its just a question.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am actually curious to see what sports are like in 20 years. My guess is they won't resemble sports today at all. The NFL is pretty much way beyond anything normal as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Am I, a relatively passive observer when it comes to most sports (just don't care enough to make a lot of wagers, crunch stats, etc.), accurate in assuming that the staggering growth of athletes is going to become an increasingly big issue, particularly in high contact sports like football? What I mean is, these players are getting bigger, stronger, faster, hitting harder, etc., but their ankles and joints aren't really getting any more durable. Is this accurate? If so this is really bad news for the NFL.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

I don't imagine players will be getting much bigger than they are currently. Maybe taller.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
This captures a lot of how I feel these days about things like steroids and so forth; it just seems like a relatively arbitary line drawn between what types of technology/nutrition are going to be accepted, and what aren't.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've felt this way for a long time and am still not entirely clear on why steroids are considered cheating. Is it something about the mechanisms they target to transform the bodies of the athletes that is considered cheating, or just the fact that they have harmful side effects? If more research was done and it was shown that steroids could be safely administered would they be legalized?

Isn't the whole concept of a natural level playing field kind of ridiculous anyway? Most of us accept that the majority of world class athletes in any sport are genetically superior freaks. All doping rules do is maintain their naturally unfair advantage. If anything, swinging the door wide open to any and all supplements or genetic treatments seems like the best way to level the playing field.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I, a relatively passive observer when it comes to most sports (just don't care enough to make a lot of wagers, crunch stats, etc.), accurate in assuming that the staggering growth of athletes is going to become an increasingly big issue, particularly in high contact sports like football? What I mean is, these players are getting bigger, stronger, faster, hitting harder, etc., but their ankles and joints aren't really getting any more durable. Is this accurate? If so this is really bad news for the NFL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Health post-NFL has been an issue and will continue to be. And not just knees/joints.

NFL Mortality

Re: Cheating in sports
 

My Burrito Brother,

The whole level playing field train of thought is an extremely fine line to begin with. If you are basing steroids as wrong b/c of this and only this then you have only some argument b/c level playing field is only "some" of the problem. The reason is that the entire goal of an athlete in the offseason is to unlevel the playing field so to speak. Of course naturally and w/o cheating. The way you become great in athletics is by figuring out ways to get yourself ready for the season in ways that others aren't. Once you are at the level many of these athletes are at there isn't much talent separating them and it becomes the little things that does. Many have chosen illegal ways to separate themselves and this is when you have a problem.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once you are at the level many of these athletes are at there isn't much talent separating them and it becomes the little things that does. Many have chosen illegal ways to separate themselves and this is when you have a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The entire argument, in my opinion, is about why those things should be illegal in the first place (by the rules of the game, that is; steroids as real-life illegal complicates things a bit). What makes training for several hours a day and taking crazy nutritional supplements more acceptable than taking steroids? Both seem, in some sense, unnatural, at least to me anyway. Again, another good example from the Salon article was creatine. Zumsteg points out that you could get the same amount of creatine in normal supplements by eating several pounds of meat a day. Does that make creatine supplements natural, or unnatural, and should they be legal or not?

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
If athletes want to shorten there life by taking steroids let them

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the players want to shorten their lives. They want a rule agaisnt it so they don't ahve to shorten their lives for a competitive edge. I remember in college studying helmets in the NHL (this was an econ class, so the arguments we looked at most likely were simplified form what really occurred). The players wants helmets to be safer, but it restricted their field of vision so they only wanted to wear a helmet if everyone else had to also.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many have chosen illegal ways to separate themselves and this is when you have a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

My main question is based on my lack of understanding of what separates legal and illegal. At the highest levels I'm sure nutrition and supplements are a large part of the 'unleveling' process in the offseason. So from an ethical standpoint, where does an athlete draw the line? Is finding an unknown substance that hasn't been specifically banned but mimics the effects of an anabolic steroid acceptable? If not, what evaluation process can an athlete use to determine if an unbanned substance is simply wrong to use?

In the case of Mark McGwire, some point out that nothing he was allegedly using was specifically banned at the time, but others say he obviously knew it was wrong and cheating. How does one make this determination? How does a governing body determine the line between the most powerful legal supplement and an illegal performance enhancer?

Re: Cheating in sports
 

gumpzilla,

Well this is why I had said there is an extremely fine line and actually it seems when talking about steroids or cheating in sports there are always grey areas and fine lines. Its a tough subject.

Nutritional supplements and creatine aren't illegal is the first and most important answer to the question.

Nutritional supplements aren't unnatural b/c you aren't adding anything unnatural to your body. Athletes eat better than the avg. Joe but even still they don't eat perfectly and when on the road they don't especially. Nutritional supplements is just a way to naturally give your body what it needs to keep it in peak condition. This isn't abnormal.

I am not a creatine expert, there are many in The Gym like Smiley and Thremp and Skunkworks and countless others that could answer your question much better. I am not an expert b/c I don't use it. I did know that you could get enough creatine in your body from your diet though. Maybe someone better can chime in on creatine b/c I am not equip to answer it.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Burrito,

The highest level of sports are about finding edges like mentioned before. If a player comes across "X" and it makes your muscles grow and enhances your fast-twitch muscles and your game is going to a phase it hasn't been before, and this "X" isn't a banned substance nor is it illegal then why would a player NOT take it? It doesn't matter if the drug BECOMES illegal 5-6 years later such as Andro did (McGwire). You didn't know it was going to be illegal, for all you know creatine could be illegal in 10 years--what are we going to ban the entire MLB? Are we going to "assume" everyone is a cheater now because they were taking a drink that became a banned substance in the league? Of course not.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't imagine players will be getting much bigger than they are currently. Maybe taller.

[/ QUOTE ]maybe not bigger, but certainly faster and stronger.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

I'm 100% against the use of steroids in sports, or any performance enhancing drugs. I want to go to a hockey game, football game, or baseball game and see the best players in the world play the game, unadulterated. I don't want to see just good players who have bolstered their performance by using drugs. If I wanted to go see guys pumped up on roids, I could go to the nearest gym.

I don't think anyone can argue that at the age of 42, Bonds wouldn't be threatening to become the player with the most career home runs if he hadn't taken drugs. And that's what bothers me.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone can argue that at the age of 42, Bonds wouldn't be threatening to become the player with the most career home runs if he hadn't taken drugs

[/ QUOTE ] Sports medicine is better nowadays, guys keep themselves in better shape, baseball is a low impact sport, etc.... lots of possible arguments. Also maybe Aaron took them(lol). Blanket statements rarely encompass everything.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

No doubt that in the years gone by of sport and training techniques, methods of improving stamina, strength and overall performance have come by leaps and bounds. But all you have to do is look at pictures of Bonds in the early 90's and Bonds now.

Bonds circa 92: tiny barry

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Really the only good case against Bonds would be that he was the only one using steroids, or he was the only one using the very best of the stuff.

These are both not true, and thus we can still conclude that Bonds is one of the greatest players ever.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Believe it or not people in their 20's look a whole lot different than when they are in their 40's.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

If your not cheating your not trying!

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Bonds is obviously on something, the question is wether it was banned when he took it and exactly what he did/is doing.

Sports should reward the combination of natural skill and hard work that is the formula for success in any field. At the same time, we walk a thin like by "leveling the playing field" through Thommy John, etc while simultanously condeming similar advantages gained through steroids. This is the same question as affirmative action, really.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really the only good case against Bonds would be that he was the only one using steroids, or he was the only one using the very best of the stuff.

These are both not true, and thus we can still conclude that Bonds is one of the greatest players ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

are yous seriously doubting that barry bonds didnt use steroids? maybe pete rose didnt bet on baseball? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not people in their 20's look a whole lot different than when they are in their 40's.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true.

Athletes in their 20's are always going to be thinner, they may be well built, ripped and muscular but they don't carry the mass like they do when they age.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Shadowrun,

He is saying that everyone was available to the best stuff (not the only one using the best stuff) and he isn't the only one using it. He is saying that if you were able to somehow figure it out that he was the only one to ever do it then that is the only way he wouldn't be considered one of the greatest players ever.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

It's called ethics, people. If you can't see the ethical difference between working hard and using drugs to increase performance, I feel sorry for you.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's called ethics, people. If you can't see the ethical difference between working hard and using drugs to increase performance, I feel sorry for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the difference. The difference is between working hard with drugs, and working hard without drugs, at least as I understand it.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Every single professional athlete uses drugs to increase their performance.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every single professional athlete uses drugs to increase their performance.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is a difference between HGH, anabolic steroids, and Flinstone Vitamins

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Just like there's a difference between jogging every day and surgically taking out tendons in your knee and placing them in your elbow. Nobody seems to have a problem with that though.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just like there's a difference between jogging every day and surgically taking out tendons in your knee and placing them in your elbow. Nobody seems to have a problem with that though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, personally i feel it is only natural for athletes to want to be bigger,faster, stronger through any means they can.
However, that doesn't mean you can let them off the hook for taking illegal substances.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just like there's a difference between jogging every day and surgically taking out tendons in your knee and placing them in your elbow. Nobody seems to have a problem with that though.

[/ QUOTE ]I really don't have a problem with that. I know the elbow generally is stronger than it originally was, but they always run the risk of reinjuring themselves. It just SEEMS different.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just like there's a difference between jogging every day and surgically taking out tendons in your knee and placing them in your elbow. Nobody seems to have a problem with that though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, personally i feel it is only natural for athletes to want to be bigger,faster, stronger through any means they can.
However, that doesn't mean you can let them off the hook for taking illegal substances.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the whole point of this subject was why are these things illegal and should they be [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You can't defend your stance by saying "They are illegal"

Re: Cheating in sports
 

With the UCL surgery the reason it is stronger than it originally was is b/c that tendon is tighter now. Think of the UCL has a rubber band and when it pops that's when you need TJ/UCL surgery and what they do is like Thayer said take a tendon from another part of your body and put it in your elbow and they tighten that baby up. How you perform after that has to do with your rehab b/c of scar tissue, if you rehab correctly you will have a brand new, free and easy, tightly wound UCL and throw harder than before the injury b/c right before you injured it it was loose and frayed.

TSC, you are correct though b/c the shelf life is shorter than your original UCL. If it took all your life, let's say 18 years to tear that tendon and you are in your mid-20's then if you put the same amount of wear and tear on that elbow and don't change your mechanics then the chance of re-injury is greater in much less time.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Has anyone who is writing about steroids ever read anything about them? I hear the most idiotic things said all the time.

Steroids is probably one of the safer forms of PEDs that are used now.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Tdarko, thanks for the explanation. To me thats why I don't equate TJ Surgery with steroids.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Also, I can't find the link anywhere, but I believe Rob Neyer recently talked about how many doctors in the PED field have all said that HGH doesn't enhance performance at all.

If anyone knows what I'm talking about please post it, I'd be interested in reading it again.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

Yeah, the more that comes out about HGH, the more it just seems like snake oil.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

I would love to read this article.

Re: Cheating in sports
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's called ethics, people. If you can't see the ethical difference between working hard and using drugs to increase performance, I feel sorry for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the difference. The difference is between working hard with drugs, and working hard without drugs, at least as I understand it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the difference either. The difference is between working hard with some drugs that are legal versus working hard with some other drugs that are illegal.