Common No Limit Situation
 

Cash game. Generally good players. 25-50 blinds. You have about 12K in front of you and most have you covered. You make it 200 to go UTG with AQ of spades. Three calls behind you and both blinds call. Flop is Ad 8h 7h. Small blind checks. Big blind bets $600.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

The big blind just bet half the pot.

Six players saw a flop for $200 each, $1200 in the pot.

Call me weak tight, but out of position here I fold this hand.

Change my Q of spades to the Queen of trump and I would raise to $2400.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cash game. Generally good players. 25-50 blinds. You have about 12K in front of you and most have you covered. You make it 200 to go UTG with AQ of spades. Three calls behind you and both blinds call. Flop is Ad 8h 7h. Small blind checks. Big blind bets $600.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call and pray for a raise or 4 folds behind me. My hand is too good to fold at this point, but raising isn't great either. I can explain my reasoning if this is controversial.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I don't like the way this pot is heading. There are five opponents, one is happy to bet into the pf raiser, there are two good draws on board which if they hit means you need runner-runner full house plus three of your opponents have position on you.

I may be seeing demons under the bed but I'm looking forward to my next two hole cards.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

Raise to $1800. If I am re-raised, I probably fold.

If I get any callers, my action on the turn would be based largely on whether it completes any draws associated with the 87 on board, or pairs the 8 or 7. My goal would be to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, ideally with no more of my chips going into the pot.

I would modify these actions based on my read of the players, as appropriate.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I like a raise to 1800 also. You cant fold and calling is pointless because it tells you nothing. Does a four to the flush call 1800? If you get called after the bet you can most likely say there is a good draw chasing. The initial better most likely has an ace. See what the turn brings and decide from there.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like a raise to 1800 also. You cant fold and calling is pointless because it tells you nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It tells you something more cheaply if someone raises behind you or several people call behind you

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like a raise to 1800 also. You cant fold and calling is pointless because it tells you nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It tells you something more cheaply if someone raises behind you or several people call behind you

[/ QUOTE ]True but what if he semi bluff raising with a heart draw and then you fold. I would rather show strength than try to read his motives for raising. I would not want to fold to a semi bluff with my hand. Good heart draws will pay 600 but mabye not 1800.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would not want to fold to a semi bluff with my hand. Good heart draws will pay 600 but mabye not 1800.

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, BB can't really be semi-bluffing here. He is leading into a UTG raiser with 4 players who haven't acted yet with an A on board. That's an indication of strength, not a semi-bluff since the chance of getting the entire table to fold here has to be pretty slim.

I have to put him on Axh, A7, A8, 78, 77 or 88. So sure a big raise might chase away all the draws, but you are not looking good against BB unless he has Axh (and even that is not great since he will have 12 outs).

And if any of those other players has any of those above hands, they are not going away either.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not want to fold to a semi bluff with my hand. Good heart draws will pay 600 but mabye not 1800.

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, BB can't really be semi-bluffing here. He is leading into a UTG raiser with 4 players who haven't acted yet with an A on board. That's an indication of strength, not a semi-bluff since the chance of getting the entire table to fold here has to be pretty slim.

I have to put him on Axh, A7, A8, 78, 77 or 88. So sure a big raise might chase away all the draws, but you are not looking good against BB unless he has Axh (and even that is not great since he will have 12 outs).

And if any of those other players has any of those above hands, they are not going away either.

[/ QUOTE ]I was thinking that the people behind me may semi bluff if I dont raise, I put BB on an ace.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, BB can't really be semi-bluffing here. I have to put him on Axh, A7, A8, 78, 77 or 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when you hit your Ace with AQ, but someone bets before you, you always assume you're beat by everything he might hold except the Axh hand, and just fold? Kinda weak-tight, no?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I agree with you speak.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

Call me a pussy, but I fold this.
First of all you should be beaten already. This bet shows so much strength that it should be two pair or better. If he has a weak ace like AT, would he really bet into the preflopraiser if it's likely that he got a better ace?
Semi bluffing is almost impossible there.
If you're raising, are there any worse hands that call and better hands that'll fold? Every set and two pair will call and AJ or worse will fold. Some draws may pay to hit, but you can't be sure that he's drawing.
Suppose you raise here and got two callers. You fire another barrel on the turn when no heart and/or straight card comes up and got called. Another blank on the river and the BB moves in. Can you call it?
Suppose you call and another player calls behind you. A blank comes on the turn and the BB fires out again.
What are you supposed to do there?
I think this is a spot where you can lose a huge pot because you have no idea where you stand and it's too expensive to find out. And you have almost no chance of improvement and you might be dead to runner-runner FH or Quads. If the Qh comes off you may be up against a flush and if an Ace comes you might lose all your money against a full house.
All in all a ugly spot to be in and I'd go out there as cheaply as possible.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I think that, because of the fact that there are so many players behind you when you make this decision, you have to either raise to drive them out, or give up and fold.

Unless I had a read that would make me want to fold, I'd raise here, even though it makes my hand fairly apparent. And of course I would have to fold to a reraise. If he calls, the rest of the hand is read-dependent. I would really like to check the turn to control the pot size, but that seems a bit hypocritical given that I just raised the flop.

So I'm in a situation where I need to discourage the players behind me from calling, yet keep the pot as small as possible.

Believe it or not, I think a minraise to 1200 is right here. Any more is just giving away money. It gives the players behind odds just bad enough that they'll have a tough time continuing with any hand they wouldn't be willing to reraise with. Add to that the fact that they have to worry about BB re-raising, and they've got to fold their draws and weaker hands. Of course, we're not worried about BB re-raising, because we know we're folding, and in that case we've gotten out as cheaply as possible. So the idea is that we threaten the other players with the possibility of a reraise from the BB, rather than with our own money.
So I'd say minraise to 1200. If I get reraised, fold. If everyone folds to BB who calls, I would be inclined to check the turn and look for a cheap showdown.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that, because of the fact that there are so many players behind you when you make this decision, you have to either raise to drive them out, or give up and fold.

Unless I had a read that would make me want to fold, I'd raise here, even though it makes my hand fairly apparent. And of course I would have to fold to a reraise. If he calls, the rest of the hand is read-dependent. I would really like to check the turn to control the pot size, but that seems a bit hypocritical given that I just raised the flop.

So I'm in a situation where I need to discourage the players behind me from calling, yet keep the pot as small as possible.

Believe it or not, I think a minraise to 1200 is right here. Any more is just giving away money. It gives the players behind odds just bad enough that they'll have a tough time continuing with any hand they wouldn't be willing to reraise with. Add to that the fact that they have to worry about BB re-raising, and they've got to fold their draws and weaker hands. Of course, we're not worried about BB re-raising, because we know we're folding, and in that case we've gotten out as cheaply as possible. So the idea is that we threaten the other players with the possibility of a reraise from the BB, rather than with our own money.
So I'd say minraise to 1200. If I get reraised, fold. If everyone folds to BB who calls, I would be inclined to check the turn and look for a cheap showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]I like this also, betting to make a statement but not risking to much money.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I try to stay away from games that have generally good players.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

Will Dave reveal the best coarse of action to us? WWDD

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

Raise for value all-in since your hand figures to better than his since you are far superior.

-J

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

Never played this size game, but without player reads, I'd fold here immediately:

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]The strength of BB's bet suggests I am behind at the moment.
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Against any hand I am currently behind, I'm drawing very thin.
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Many players remain to act behind me, all of whom had enough hand to call my (tight) UTG PFR.
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Whether I am ahead or behind at the moment, unless I go all-in immediately, there are many turn and river cards that will cause me to lose even if I am ahead at the moment, whether by forcing me to fold the best hand or by outdrawing me.
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]If I don't push immediately, I am laying implied odds if I continue: I have a hand that wants a cheap showdown and I have no way to get it. Thus if I am beat, I stand to lose a lot.
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] The flip side of the same coin: If I play on, I stand to win only a little when I'm ahead, unless BB or one of the other players is a maniac - but if they are, I can pick a better spot later and likely break one or more of them with quite a bit less risk.
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]I believe that if I go all-in, my push will be called (and lose) more than 13-to-2.

For the record though, I think a push is less expensive than the 1200 or 1800 dollar raise some have suggested. I would expect the small raise to lose almost every time, whereas a push might knock out AK or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

there are so many pussies in this thread it is unbelievable.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I really like this question David - one of your better poker questions that ive read - as this is a very difficult scenario...

Anyways... I think a call here will give away your hand. The BB will know that with just a call that you have AK/AQ. Therefore you can expect a big raise almost regardless of what card hits on the turn. A raise to roughly 2000$ would tell you where you stand most likely , however, this is 1/6+ of your stack and your goal is not to figure out where you stand, it is to win the pot or avoid losing alot of money. If you raise and are called by more than just the BB, or reraised by the BB, then you are in serious trouble and just lost yourself that bet.

Anyways. Against a good player you are most likely beat, or even destroyed. You could be against a hand like 9 10 hearts (straight flush draw) but this is almost certainly not the case. With a straight flush draw the BB would assume you hit the ace and let you bet again. Then he might raise or call.

The main reason you play AQ strongly preflop is because it is suited. You have no backdoor flush draw anymore. Your hand has gone from pretty good to crap. Assuming that we dont know much about our opponents ability to bluff or semi bluff (this isnt Sammy Farha betting into you is it?) you can assume that your opponent has at least 2 pair. You cannot be certain however that a Queen on the turn will ensure your victory. The Queen of hearts is not going to make you feel stronger and so you can only hope for 2 cards in the deck.

So my decision - although it would annoy me - would be to throw the hand away. You lost 200 but I think any other play would make you lose alot more. Youve got about 11,800 left so wait for a better scenario.

Putting my thoughts about this hand into words would require about 50 pages worth of stuff. Isnt it amazing how fast our brains work - good poker players analyze 1000s of possibilities before they are required to act (online this is like 30 seconds tops). if you dont agree with me it may be because I left out a couple thoughts...

peace

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]The strength of BB's bet suggests I am behind at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly do you think he's betting with?

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Against any hand I am currently behind, I'm drawing very thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Many players remain to act behind me, all of whom had enough hand to call my (tight) UTG PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not like they all have good hands. By the time it got to BB, he had to call 400 to see a flop for a 3600 pot. It doesn't take much hand to make that call.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Whether I am ahead or behind at the moment, unless I go all-in immediately, there are many turn and river cards that will cause me to lose even if I am ahead at the moment, whether by forcing me to fold the best hand or by outdrawing me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That can be said about any non-nut hand. I don't think that's a good reason to fold here.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]If I don't push immediately, I am laying implied odds if I continue: I have a hand that wants a cheap showdown and I have no way to get it. Thus if I am beat, I stand to lose a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you could get a cheap showdown. It's certainly possible. As for your other point, that's a definite concern. But we only lose a big pot if we put a lot more money in the pot, and we'll always have the option of folding if things get that ugly. Dont forget that we have position on this guy, which is a huge help in keeping the pot smaller.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] The flip side of the same coin: If I play on, I stand to win only a little when I'm ahead, unless BB or one of the other players is a maniac - but if they are, I can pick a better spot later and likely break one or more of them with quite a bit less risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the "win only a little" argument is reserved for people that are out of position.
As for waiting for a better spot, this is a cash game, not a tourney.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]I believe that if I go all-in, my push will be called (and lose) more than 13-to-2.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I read this right, you're saying that you've got less than or equal to 15% equity in this hand if he calls every time.

If you push, the others always fold, and he always calls and has either:
1)AA, 88, or 77 for a set,
2)A8 or A7 for aces up, or
3)AhXh,
you've got 24% equity.
Removing the AhXh hands, you've got 12.2% equity. Although this is assuming he calls all the time (which he won't), and that the other players will fold all the time (which they won't), we can see that we're pushing our money in with not much equity. We definitely have some fold equity if we push, but I don't think it's nearly enough to cover how badly beaten we are and how much money we lose when we get called. I think pushing is a disaster here.

I think you're underestimating BB's betting range here.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

"If you push, the others always fold, and he always calls and has either:
1)AA, 88, or 77 for a set,
2)A8 or A7 for aces up, or
3)AhXh,
you've got 24% equity."

Your opponent almost certainly does not have AA. He would almost always reraise preflop with 3 other callers. Duhh..

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I don't believe you guys who say you would fold.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]The strength of BB's bet suggests I am behind at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly do you think he's betting with?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hard to say. As you pointed out, he's able to see the flop cheaply. But he's betting into 4 players who haven't acted, including a UTG PFR with an Ace on board. Let me turn this around: if you call or make a small raise, what do you think he's betting with?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Against any hand I am currently behind, I'm drawing very thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Many players remain to act behind me, all of whom had enough hand to call my (tight) UTG PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not like they all have good hands. By the time it got to BB, he had to call 400 to see a flop for a 3600 pot. It doesn't take much hand to make that call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, preflop. When he bets postflop, his range trims down quite a bit.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Whether I am ahead or behind at the moment, unless I go all-in immediately, there are many turn and river cards that will cause me to lose even if I am ahead at the moment, whether by forcing me to fold the best hand or by outdrawing me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That can be said about any non-nut hand. I don't think that's a good reason to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. If we were heads up or three-way with no player read, I'd play here always, especially on the draw-heavy board. Here though, with many hands in and few ways to improve, I think our playing disadvantage outweighs our (statistical, immediate) equity edge.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]If I don't push immediately, I am laying implied odds if I continue: I have a hand that wants a cheap showdown and I have no way to get it. Thus if I am beat, I stand to lose a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you could get a cheap showdown. It's certainly possible. As for your other point, that's a definite concern. But we only lose a big pot if we put a lot more money in the pot, and we'll always have the option of folding if things get that ugly. Dont forget that we have position on this guy, which is a huge help in keeping the pot smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most of my experience is limit, but I don't see how we can continue without putting a lot more money in the pot? It looks to me like: a call is terrible (everything worth chasing has odds to chase); a small raise invites a reraise not only when we're beat but also as a semi-bluff that will force us out; and a large raise commits our money (to, as noted, a pot that will be small when we win and large when we lose).

I want to touch on the second possibility (we make a small raise) briefly. Assume, optimistically I think, that we're ahead 67% of the time on the flop. If opponent (only) bets all 6 of the scariest turn cards (the J-9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 6-4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) we're folding almost 13% on the turn, dropping our equity to 54%. If we check when checked to (the best option), our equity drops below 50% on the river (well below, in many cases). If we bet a "less" scary turn (23 cards other than the above are still scary, completing either an OESD or flush draw; only 18 complete neither draw), we're getting called (or raised) only if we're in a lot of trouble. I'd estimate our bet's equity is about -1/3 the amount we put in the pot.

The upshot of all this is, an $1800 flop raise almost has to be wrong since we're investing a pot sized bet into a pot we'll be losing more often than we're winning. Maybe we can raise to $1200 and be okay; I haven't calculated it but intuition suggests this still would be -EV.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] The flip side of the same coin: If I play on, I stand to win only a little when I'm ahead, unless BB or one of the other players is a maniac - but if they are, I can pick a better spot later and likely break one or more of them with quite a bit less risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the "win only a little" argument is reserved for people that are out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Usually, but to me this situation looks like an exception to that generalization.
[ QUOTE ]
As for waiting for a better spot, this is a cash game, not a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which makes it all the more reasonable to wait, doesn't it? In a tournament we will sometimes be forced to take a considerable gamble. Live, if we're against a maniac, why bother?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]I believe that if I go all-in, my push will be called (and lose) more than 13-to-2.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I read this right, you're saying that you've got less than or equal to 15% equity in this hand if he calls every time.

If you push, the others always fold, and he always calls and has either:
1)AA, 88, or 77 for a set,
2)A8 or A7 for aces up, or
3)AhXh,
you've got 24% equity.
Removing the AhXh hands, you've got 12.2% equity. Although this is assuming he calls all the time (which he won't), and that the other players will fold all the time (which they won't), we can see that we're pushing our money in with not much equity. We definitely have some fold equity if we push, but I don't think it's nearly enough to cover how badly beaten we are and how much money we lose when we get called. I think pushing is a disaster here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I may not have done a good job expressing my idea. If we push and are called, we're in very bad shape. I agree with your assessment of his range and I assume your equity calculation is correct at 24% (I think we get called here with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].) The trouble is, when we don't get called we win 1800 bucks. I think we'll get called (and lose) often enough that the push isn't worth it. If we get called 25% of the time and have 25% (rounding for simplicity) equity when we do get called, in 16 trials:
12 times we win $1800
1 time we win 1800 + 11800 = 13600
3 times we lose 11800

For a net total of -200.00 per 16 trials or an average loss of $12.50 per hand. (For the record, this is why I think pushing treats us better than making a small raise, but they still both look -EV to me.)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're underestimating BB's betting range here.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you say underestimating, do you mean you think I'm giving him too much credit, or too little?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

It's four other callers. The SB called as well. And while I think he'd usually raise, "almost always" (IE 98%+ or something) seems high to me: some players are trappy.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, BB can't really be semi-bluffing here. I have to put him on Axh, A7, A8, 78, 77 or 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when you hit your Ace with AQ, but someone bets before you, you always assume you're beat by everything he might hold except the Axh hand, and just fold? Kinda weak-tight, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
It sure would be weak/tight if it was just you and BB. However, this is a six-way pot. People don't just throw money into a multiway pot like this. Especially when they are not the pf raiser and an A is on board.

Aggression in poker has a very big (sometimes silent) adjective in front of it: "selective". BB is saying he is not afraid of your pf raise or the A on board OR the other 4 players in the pot.

When you raise UTG with AQs you are not hoping to be in a six way pot. So even hitting your A on the flop is not necessarily going to make you happy. I would only really be happy with trip A or Q or a flush draw.

With six guys in a pot, AQs almost becomes like suited connectors. And really you only paired one hole card here. Just because it is top pair, doesn't mean you go throwing money at this pot. Any one of those other players could have those hands I mentioned, hands that are going to be tough to catch up to.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

I notice you haven't offered a specific alternative to folding, much less reasoning to back it up. Have you got anything?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really like this question David - one of your better poker questions that ive read - as this is a very difficult scenario...

Anyways... I think a call here will give away your hand. The BB will know that with just a call that you have AK/AQ. Therefore you can expect a big raise almost regardless of what card hits on the turn. A raise to roughly 2000$ would tell you where you stand most likely , however, this is 1/6+ of your stack and your goal is not to figure out where you stand, it is to win the pot or avoid losing alot of money. If you raise and are called by more than just the BB, or reraised by the BB, then you are in serious trouble and just lost yourself that bet.

Anyways. Against a good player you are most likely beat, or even destroyed. You could be against a hand like 9 10 hearts (straight flush draw) but this is almost certainly not the case. With a straight flush draw the BB would assume you hit the ace and let you bet again. Then he might raise or call.

The main reason you play AQ strongly preflop is because it is suited. You have no backdoor flush draw anymore. Your hand has gone from pretty good to crap. Assuming that we dont know much about our opponents ability to bluff or semi bluff (this isnt Sammy Farha betting into you is it?) you can assume that your opponent has at least 2 pair. You cannot be certain however that a Queen on the turn will ensure your victory. The Queen of hearts is not going to make you feel stronger and so you can only hope for 2 cards in the deck.

So my decision - although it would annoy me - would be to throw the hand away. You lost 200 but I think any other play would make you lose alot more. Youve got about 11,800 left so wait for a better scenario.

Putting my thoughts about this hand into words would require about 50 pages worth of stuff. Isnt it amazing how fast our brains work - good poker players analyze 1000s of possibilities before they are required to act (online this is like 30 seconds tops). if you dont agree with me it may be because I left out a couple thoughts...

peace

[/ QUOTE ]

another scenario i didnt mention. make a very convincing ALL IN raise and you might get the pot. bluff 3 aces. hed probably fold

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

This is a simple raise or fold situation and I think its only a fold against the nittier BB's. Any call or raise behind me and I'm done with the hand. If BB calls I'm hoping to check behind on the turn and probably fold to a strong turn bet. It really depends so much on a read on the BB but calling here is terrible. It could be a blockish bet on the flop or a monster. Raise flop for pot control.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

To the players who say they would fold because the BB wouldn't semi-bluff in this position: wouldn't the fact that he is playing against someone like you, someone who would give him credit for a big hand with that sort of bet, give him reason to semi-bluff?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
To the players who say they would fold because the BB wouldn't semi-bluff in this position: wouldn't the fact that he is playing against someone like you, someone who would give him credit for a big hand with that sort of bet, give him reason to semi-bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]
BB isn't just playing against you. There are four other players who also all called pf raises with something.

Do you really think a half pot semi-bluff bet is going to make 5 players fold in a raised pot?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]

Do you really think a half pot semi-bluff bet is going to make 5 players fold in a raised pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

If we've got people saying they would fold AQ here, then I'd say yeah, it's a possibility. Anybody that doesn't have relative position (like us) is going to be hardpressed to call, and by the time it gets back to the people who do have relative position, they are much more likely to fold because they have nothing. They called in the first place after 2+ people cold-called the initial raise.

I'm not saying BB is weak here all the time, or a lot. But I think it's a possibility that needs to be considered.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To the players who say they would fold because the BB wouldn't semi-bluff in this position: wouldn't the fact that he is playing against someone like you, someone who would give him credit for a big hand with that sort of bet, give him reason to semi-bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]
BB isn't just playing against you. There are four other players who also all called pf raises with something.

Do you really think a half pot semi-bluff bet is going to make 5 players fold in a raised pot?

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They're specified as being "generally good" players, so I am assuming they know that your bet is representing a big hand. Do you think that anyone with an ace is going to call on the flop? How tight does the rest of the table have to be for BB to have a profitable bluffing or semibluffing possibility here?

If you call, what can everyone else at the table put you on? It looks like AK (often with one or more diamonds) or a set, doesn't it? Am I missing any hands? If you do have the best hand, you'll probably get a cheap showdown. You might induce someone to throw away AK behind you. If you don't have the best hand, you can still throw your hand away on the turn to another bet. Plus, if BB would never semibluff with a draw, but has to have two pair or better, you might have some bluffing potential if a diamond comes and you can represent AK of diamonds.

People act like calling on the flop commits you to calling most of the times on the turn and river. Does it?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

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People act like calling on the flop commits you to calling most of the times on the turn and river. Does it?

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No but it gives away too much information. Or are there any other hands you'd play this way if you are straightforward and tight?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

This is a reverse implied odds situation. Raising is problematic because there are several players to act behind us and if one of them wakes up with a hand we're in trouble. Even if one of the 3 players with position on us flat calls the $1800, we can't like our hand very much and will likely have to give up on the turn. Easy fold with little money invested, poor relative position, and a hand with little chance of improvement if beaten.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

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This is a reverse implied odds situation. Raising is problematic because there are several players to act behind us and if one of them wakes up with a hand we're in trouble. Even if one of the 3 players with position on us flat calls the $1800, we can't like our hand very much and will likely have to give up on the turn. Easy fold with little money invested, poor relative position, and a hand with little chance of improvement if beaten.

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This is what I have been saying. But it appears that a lot of what people have been saying seems to apply to a heads up vs. BB scenario.

Four other opponents increases the likelyhood of all those other bad hands. There could even be a guy with AK and he's probably not exactly thrilled either unless he has something suited happening.

I remember a segment on TV where they asked poker pros what hands they don't like playing and AQ came up a lot. Actually, even Doyle Brunson has commented on how much can be lost on that hand. And I do believe this is good example of such a situation. With no flush or straight hopes you are drawing to 2 outs for trips and 3 outs for two pair, both of which may not even be good enough.

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

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there are so many pussies in this thread it is unbelievable.

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The problem is, most here don't play w/ stack sizes DS is talking about. So it's hard to rationalize raising to $1,800 if you've never won $1,800 in a pot let alone raise that.

so?
 

David - what play/s do you like here?

Re: Common No Limit Situation
 

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there are so many pussies in this thread it is unbelievable.

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Why do you make this statement?