Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

...and also, never ever ever say that the waters are infested with nits and sharks.

Everyday, there is a thread somewhere about the games being unbeatable, and filled with sharks.

OMG, you say, since UIGEA, Pstars is filled with rocks and I can't beat the games. FTP is a rock garden, you say.

I think its debatable whether or not this is the case. I think its also debatable that the bill is responsible for this. But this thread is <u>not</u> about this debate, this thread is about <u>recruiting</u>.

The truth is, that just like you, the average recreational player wants to win money. Of course, if such a player doesn't have the same skill sets as you, in the long run he will lose. However, he normally doesn't believe that he lacks the skills, and usually thinks that is he is very skilled. Ask yourself, how many poker players have you met that honestly deep down believe that they are fish? Not that many, probably less than 5%.

On-line poker, however, has several drawbacks already to recreational players. The average recreational player doesn't trust the sites are not rigged. The are unsure of the legality. The don't know if they will be able to get their money out.

So, on top of all this, do you think its wise for these players to also be told that the games are now unbeatable because it's just sharks, HUDBOTS and rocks? Don't you think there is enough going against on-line poker in general for these players. Do you want your griping to tip the scales against the new money coming in?

There is a lot of griping about the game conditions on this site. (A lot of it has actually been going on pre-Frist as well, and pre-Frist, very very very few players actually made real money playing on-line poker.) However, I wonder where else people may be talking about the games being tougher or unbeatable.

Do you ever find yourself talking about the games outside of this forum, bitching to your friends that you can't win anymore? Did you use to make boat loads playing SSNL while in college while the rest of your friends worked schmuck jobs?

Here is something to think about. Your friends were probably jealous of you, and after playing a few $10 tournies, may think they have what it takes. Now, you start talking to these friends about how you are going to have to get a real job? Guess what, that friend's decision not to play on-line poker has just received positive feedback.

More so, when you pull in a nice 10 buy-in weekend, week, month at $200NL, and you tell your friends, they tell their friends and there is a chain going about how so and so made $2,000 playing on Pstars. Five or six tellings down the road, it's now rumored that so-and-so made $20,000 in one night.

When you bitch about the games getting harder and unbeatable, what are those stories like five or six retellings later.

If some asks you if on-line poker is unbeatable, they are a potential recruit, or they know potential recruits. Think about that, before complaining about the HUDBOTS.

Better yet, let's try a script, just like a telemarketer.

Q. Do you play poker for a living?

A. Yes, I started just for fun, but after losing a little at first, I learned to beat the games and never looked back.

- or -

A. No, I play as a hobby and use my winnings as supplemental income.

Q. So and so told me that games are infested with sharks and can't be beaten. Is that true?

A. No, it's not true at all. First of all, I play (insert stake here) and the really good players and pros play much higher because it's not worth it for them to play at my level. Second of all, I am constantly surrounded by bad players at my tables, and not to sound condescending, many of them are just easy money.

-or, if you are balla -

A. Dude, I made $200K last month.

Q. Yeah, but I heard about so many people going broke and have to go and get real jobs since the UIGEA?

A. Well, I think that's a bit of a misnomer. Poker is a real job if you want to make a living at it. You have to put in real job hours, and it's a lot more challenging then your typical run of the mill job. I think the people telling you this don't understand the game for what it is. The truth of the matter is that many people who say it's unbeatable never put in the time to learn what it takes to win over the long-term. I can promise you, that if you put in the time, you will be able to beat the lower limit games, and if you have some natural talent, you could go all the way and make a killing in the biggest games.

Whether or not you believe this, this is what the public image of poker should be. Coincidentally, I believe this 100%, so I am not advocating misinformation.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Allright, lets all put our heads into the sand and pretend we are back in 2003.

2+2 is not a shill site to promote b&amp;m or online poker. Many users got their money out of Neteller before P2p transactions were stopped. Discussion good, censorship and denial bad.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

I agree with a lot of what OP said, but I don't think it's that cut and dry. I do however see where OP is going with this, and I like it (so far).

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Sort of see your line, but noone is going to lie to their friends just to add a few more fish for random online pros to feed on. And, people hearing that games are tough is not some huge threat to online poker, there are plenty plenty plenty other threats. I don't think recreational players are really hearing that the games are tough anyway.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

OP is living in a dream world. Given what he accurately said, ("The average recreational player doesn't trust the sites are not rigged. The are unsure of the legality. The don't know if they will be able to get their money out"), everything else is irrelevant.

You're talking about the *recreational* player. It's not relevant whether or not the games are "beatable" or not. It's not the game you're taking on, it's the other players at the table. And with all the strong disincentives for the recreational player to takes risks re rigged sites, inability to withdraw, etc., when there's plenty of bar poker, casino action, and home games to be found, having someone shill to them is meaningless.

OP probably also thinks that a carve-out for poker is a done deal, too. The average recreational player wants to win money, sure, but they also want to play with convenience and trust. They don't want to have to sort through pre-paid VISAs to find one that might work, or hope that a site doesn't close their account, or pray that their withdrawal request actually goes thorugh. That's what makes them recreational players. And given the playing options they do still have...the result is obvious.

I'm thinking OP thinks a poker carve-out is a done deal, too.

Hell, the FBI is even looking into gambling taking place in Second Life. The hard core player will always find ways to play online, but absent clear evidence in their eyes that the game is now safe and legal, the truly rec player is lost to the winds.

The truth is, the game *has* gotten harder. If you want to lie to your friends, to convince them to play, just in order to make the game easier for *you*, then you're not exactly their friend now, are you? You want to recruit fresh fish into the pool? Then get the laws changed.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, the game *has* gotten harder. If you want to lie to your friends, to convince them to play, just in order to make the game easier for *you*, then you're not exactly their friend now, are you? You want to recruit fresh fish into the pool? Then get the laws changed.


[/ QUOTE ]

You see, this is exactly my point, a bunch of mediocre players, who were never good to start with, and claiming the games are just too hard now. So much of this the "games are unbeatable now" crap is just mediocre break-even players looking for an excuse instead of doing the hard work of looking into their game.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sort of see your line, but noone is going to lie to their friends just to add a few more fish for random online pros to feed on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coincidentally, I believe this 100%, so I am not advocating misinformation.

I am not telling people to lie.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

I dig your post OP. I'm on board.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dig your post OP. I'm on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

High Stakes Players only remain high stakes players because they actively recruit fish into their games.

By not recruiting fish into whatever game that you happen to play, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

IOW the OP is spot on and we should ALL be recruiting.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Actually at WSEX the games are neutral with 100 percent rake returned. Encourage the the fishy players to go there and they may have a shot to bust even or lose real slowy..... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You see, this is exactly my point, a bunch of mediocre players, who were never good to start with, and claiming the games are just too hard now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I never said the games are unbeatable, or too hard, though the numbers clearly show more rocks per table than pre-UIGEA. And it's also plainly clear that UIGEA has had a lot to do with it, because it is more difficult to deposit, sometimes impossible to withdraw, and certainly a bigger pain in the butt to the most casual users, to play.

[ QUOTE ]
So much of this the "games are unbeatable now" crap is just mediocre break-even players looking for an excuse instead of doing the hard work of looking into their game.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the interests of not harshing on your buzz, I avoided saying the very same to you. You're the one who seems more desperate to find some new fish. I'm thinking if you spent less time trying to recruit people to your cause -- which appears from your text to be trying to convince the general public that it's as easy as it ever was to play online for mobnies -- and more time working on your game, you'd be able to beat everyone at your tables and not have to worry about finding fresh fish, because you'd already be pwning all your opponents.

Me? I won't claim to be balla, but I'll play whoever sits down, and if I can't beat 'em, then I know it's time to find the leak, not whine about how there's not enough fish. Your OP seems to be doing that.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

i pretty much tell anyone who asks that they will not lose much (if any) while clearing bonus at the low stakes.

that being said, only a few of my friends that play live have signed up.

i'm retired from recuiting....
ez

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, the game *has* gotten harder. If you want to lie to your friends, to convince them to play, just in order to make the game easier for *you*, then you're not exactly their friend now, are you? You want to recruit fresh fish into the pool? Then get the laws changed.


[/ QUOTE ]

You see, this is exactly my point, a bunch of mediocre players, who were never good to start with, and claiming the games are just too hard now. So much of this the "games are unbeatable now" crap is just mediocre break-even players looking for an excuse instead of doing the hard work of looking into their game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strawman

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, the game *has* gotten harder. If you want to lie to your friends, to convince them to play, just in order to make the game easier for *you*, then you're not exactly their friend now, are you? You want to recruit fresh fish into the pool? Then get the laws changed.


[/ QUOTE ]

You see, this is exactly my point, a bunch of mediocre players, who were never good to start with, and claiming the games are just too hard now. So much of this the "games are unbeatable now" crap is just mediocre break-even players looking for an excuse instead of doing the hard work of looking into their game.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Getting harder" is not equal to "too hard". Compared to 2003, the first is true for everyone, whereas the second is only true for 85% or so.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

very creative on your part and I like your answers.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Frankly, the game *should* be getting harder, because as more players who came in during the boom play longer, most can't help but get better, to some extent.

Of course, the OP's numbers on Sharkscope are -34% ROI at an average stake of $2, and a present form of "Super Tilt", and his MTT numbers are like -98% ROI.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Oh, I wouldn't lie to friends either, but you know random people that ask I would make sure to tell them there are ways are the Neteller disaster at least.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

I'm not sure why OP has drawn so much criticism. If you believe the games are too hard, or too nitty, or too sharky, by all means tell your friends that. But why do you continue to play, then, if its not good?

And if its good enough for you to risk your cash, then why would you tell someone else its no good? Unless, of course, it sooo good that you don't want anyone to know.

My point is that OP's point is 100% valid. If you believe online poker to be fair, and potentially profitable, tell people that. That ain't censorship or misinformation.

And if you believe it sucks, stop playing, of course. OPs point is directed to those who whine, piss, and moan to others BUT PLAY ONLINE, which works to actively defeat the pursuit you are engaged in. Which, of course, simply makes no sense, and is self defeating.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Guys...I only play 200NL right now but it hasnt gotten any harder

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

The games are indeed more difficult than couple years ago no questions ask. Back in the day all you needed to do was hit a set and you would take some ones stack who has top pair. The problem is everyone has played holdem before. Everyone has seen it on tv and has some what of a strategy. The key is getting a card game other than holdem more popular then everyone doesn't know basic strategy.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, the game *should* be getting harder, because as more players who came in during the boom play longer, most can't help but get better, to some extent.

Of course, the OP's numbers on Sharkscope are -34% ROI at an average stake of $2, and a present form of "Super Tilt", and his MTT numbers are like -98% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Mondogarage, I am not MorphBall on Pstars, when I tried to take that one it was already taken. The only account I have played as "morphball" that is on sharkscope is on pokerroom, pre-UIGEA.

Here's the pokerroom though...

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3...orphongame.jpg

I only play cash on FTP. I am not "morphball" on FTP either.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sort of see your line, but noone is going to lie to their friends just to add a few more fish for random online pros to feed on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coincidentally, I believe this 100%, so I am not advocating misinformation.

I am not telling people to lie.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you said this is not about the debate about whether it has gotten harder.

So you claim to be targeting both sides of the debate with your argument.

One of those sides would have to lie to their friends if they chose to tell them that poker has not gotten harder.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

For what it's worth, in the micro ring stakes I'm playing online these days, I saw plenty of tables in PStars last night with 60-80% of players seeing the flop, and was able to pick up about 4 buy-ins in a couple of hours, even including the jackhole who sucked a two outer on a river on me for one buy-in, heh. Again, however, that was micro stakes (I don't claim to be ring game balla).

That said, I don't think there was enough in it to conclude these were real and true fish, or whether these were tighter players at higher levels, who were just truly donking it up at the micros for a time.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

[ QUOTE ]
But you said this is not about the debate about whether it has gotten harder.

So you claim to be targeting both sides of the debate with your argument.

One of those sides would have to lie to their friends if they chose to tell them that poker has not gotten harder.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, well I guess that you can't avoid either side of the debate, and I the 100% percent comment was kind of an admission that that debate was unavoidable.

I think a lot of people have stopped growing as players, and now that a higher percentage of players know a little about the game, they chose to blame the government, instead of sharpening their skills. But not only that, their negativity reduces new players, and leads to a self-feeding cycle.

If more players remain positive and excited about the game, I believe that this will encourage new players, with a side benefit of making the games a little softer. However, softer games are a small benefit, the more people playing poker, the less authority the government has to do anything about it.

And why am I telling people to lie? I said I believe 100% that any person who devotes time and effort can beat some level of poker. If you disagree with this, I am not telling to lie, I am saying that you are wrong.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Okay, so "lie" is probably too strong a word, but what you're really encouraging is for players to try to sell outsiders on the idea that this is still the go-go growth era of 2003-2006, and that's just rank BS.

Why? Because it *is* more difficult and inconvenient to deposit/withdraw (especially the latter), because there ARE more and more HUDBOTS, and those using artificial aids, because there ARE now more rocks than before at higher levels.

Does that make me any less positive and excited about the game? Of course not. I work to improve my skills daily, and the process is the thing. However, that does not alter the reality of the situation, and failure to recognize it for what it is, will doom one to foolishness.

"the more people playing poker, the less authority the government has to do anything about it" is patently incorrect. The government has the authority the government has. They've done a *very* successful job at making the financial transactions end of this very inconvenient. I've already had to change payment processors twice since UIGEA to deposit. Thankfully, I cleaned out my Neteller funds before they pulled the plug. However, no matter how much you tell prospective new players that nothing's changed, that does not alter the fact that everything *has* changed.

Why do you think there are less players now than before? How do you explain the lower numbers of people seeing flops?
How do you explain all the weeks and months-long delays in people getting withdrawals?
How do you explain all the poker sites that have left the US market?

So you propose we just ignore all that actual evidence and tell people "hey, the water's just fine"?

What will encourage new players is actual changes in current law, and actual changes in the actions of the poker sites still doing business in the US. You or I telling Joe Schmoe that today is same as it ever was, will not. Not the first time they find out they have to get a new ePassporte VISA, or trudge down to a Walgreens for a gift card that might or might not work, or send money through a Honduran 3rd party, etc., etc.

In the meantime, just look at this as an opportunity to improve your game. Because if you can beat the new, harder game regularly, then if and when such time comes that the fish can easily jump into the pool, that time will become quite profitable indeed.

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

Every time I play live in AC I always push online poker. Never a time goes by that someone tells me its Illegal. Or "you can still do that" The Law destroyed the online game, I see it every time I play live. Very sad

Re: Stop talking about the games getting harder...
 

I agree with you 100%.

That being said, am I the only one that thinks the games are getting harder?