Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

Linky (NSFW - some boob shots (seriously [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )) (~30 mins)

Executive Summary: "Walmart hatred is B.S."

I just thought this would be interesting for folks here given all the Walmart debate recently.

Incidently, Penn & Teller's B.S. is an awesome show. I'm working my way through their DVDs and have yet to think they were wrong about anything.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

Yeah, I mentioned this episode in the relevant thread already.


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Incidently, Penn & Teller's B.S. is an awesome show.

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Yes. Especially since they became more and more market oriented.


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I'm working my way through their DVDs and have yet to think they were wrong about anything.

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The one about 9/11 conspiracies is basically 100% ad hominem.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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Yeah, I mentioned this episode in the relevant thread already.

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OOPS! Didn't see that...

To mods - please lock / delete if this is overkill.

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The one about 9/11 conspiracies is basically 100% ad hominem.

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Ah, haven't seen that one yet...

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The one about 9/11 conspiracies is basically 100% ad hominem.

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I love the show and own seasons 1 and 2, but almost every episode has a healthy does of ad hominem in it, and they usually find the worst possible representatives for the opposing side.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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The one about 9/11 conspiracies is basically 100% ad hominem.

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I love the show and own seasons 1 and 2, but almost every episode has a healthy does of ad hominem in it, and they usually find the worst possible representatives for the opposing side.

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That's one of my most pressing questions each time I watch: "WHERE DO THEY FIND THESE PEOPLE?!?" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The most terrifying thing is that these people vote. ::Shudder::

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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I especially enjoy the part where Penn replies to people that are being interviewed via voice over. It's better that was, because I don't like when experts have a chance to respond.

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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So why should we care about the opinions of rich white men that have probably never been in a walmart voluntarily? Shouldn't we be more interested in people involved with the company? They can speak about the constant abuse that goes on within the company.

Oh right, but no one's making them working there, no one has a gun to their head, so I guess it's ok then.

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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So why should we care about the opinions of rich white men that have probably never been in a walmart voluntarily? Shouldn't we be more interested in people involved with the company? They can speak about the constant abuse that goes on within the company.

Oh right, but no one's making them working there, no one has a gun to their head, so I guess it's ok then.

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When I played video poker I sure got abused while waiting for the big pay days. Nobody was forcing me to do it but I stayed of my own free will because I knew I was better off playing than not playing.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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So why should we care about the opinions of rich white men that have probably never been in a walmart voluntarily? Shouldn't we be more interested in people involved with the company? They can speak about the constant abuse that goes on within the company.

Oh right, but no one's making them working there, no one has a gun to their head, so I guess it's ok then.

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When I played video poker I sure got abused while waiting for the big pay days. Nobody was forcing me to do it but I stayed of my own free will because I knew I was better off playing than not playing.

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Not analagous, you need to work to make a living (unless you are independently wealthy), playing video games on the other hand is a luxury. You can quit playing whenever you want and no harm done, but for many people you need that paycheck every week or someone doesn't eat.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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Incidently, Penn & Teller's B.S. is an awesome show. I'm working my way through their DVDs and have yet to think they were wrong about anything.

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I saw this episode the other night and, while it was basically spot on, there was a major oversight/ ignoring of some issues.

The main thing that bothered me is that they cited the benefits and salary of full time employees. This is misleading due to the fact that Wal-mart employees very few full time employees. The company purposely hires numerous part timers in order to skirt things like benefits and the like.

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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So why should we care about the opinions of rich white men that have probably never been in a walmart voluntarily? Shouldn't we be more interested in people involved with the company? They can speak about the constant abuse that goes on within the company.

Oh right, but no one's making them working there, no one has a gun to their head, so I guess it's ok then.

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When I played video poker I sure got abused while waiting for the big pay days. Nobody was forcing me to do it but I stayed of my own free will because I knew I was better off playing than not playing.

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Not analagous, you need to work to make a living (unless you are independently wealthy), playing video games on the other hand is a luxury. You can quit playing whenever you want and no harm done, but for many people you need that paycheck every week or someone doesn't eat.

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You're making a meaningless arbitrary distinction. Walmart provides that paycheck. The employees by definition must prefer working at walmart to the alternative or they wouldn't be there! When the alternative is getting an even smaller amount of stolen money from welfare, Walmart is a great option.

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You're making a meaningless arbitrary distinction.

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How the hell is it either of those? There's a distinction between things you have to do, even if you don't want to do them (jobs, for one) and things you do because you really want to do them out of your own volition.

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Walmart provides that paycheck. The employees by definition must prefer working at walmart to the alternative or they wouldn't be there!

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Does not follow. They are there because they have to work to get money, not necessarily because they prefer being there to not working. This is why my distinction is not "arbitrary and meaningless." You play video games because you prefer doing so to not doing so, and you are free to quit at any time. You can't quit your job unless you have another one lined up already. You aren't going to go hungry or be evicted if you stop playing video games. People work, for the most part because they have to, most would prefer to not have to work at all.

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When the alternative is getting an even smaller amount of stolen money from welfare, Walmart is a great option.

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Wow, Walmart has beaten out welfare, what an amazing corporation.

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Does not follow. They are there because they have to work to get money, not necessarily because they prefer being there to not working. This is why my distinction is not "arbitrary and meaningless." You play video games because you prefer doing so to not doing so, and you are free to quit at any time. You can't quit your job unless you have another one lined up already. You aren't going to go hungry or be evicted if you stop playing video games. People work, for the most part because they have to, most would prefer to not have to work at all.

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Well, boo-hoo, you have to work to get money to not die. I realize this, it is a fact of life. Your statement is arbitrary and my analogy correct because in both circumstances they have made a rational decision and prefer doing one thing to the alternative. The employees are getting EXACTLY what they signed up for, and if they don't they can sue Walmart (as has actually happened).

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Wow, Walmart has beaten out welfare, what an amazing corporation.

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You act like Walmart owes them something. It owes them nothing beyond their mutually agreed upon terms. Did I miss something? Is Walmart a charity now?

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Well, boo-hoo, you have to work to get money to not die. I realize this, it is a fact of life. Your statement is arbitrary and my analogy correct because in both circumstances they have made a rational decision and prefer doing one thing to the alternative.

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But one thing is a luxury and one is a necessity. I can't freely choose to quit my job at walmart in the same manner i freely choose to stop playing video games. In fact if I can't find other work, then I can't choose to leave at all (oh right I could choose to leave and live on the streets, guess you have a point there). "Boo-hoo?"

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The employees are getting EXACTLY what they signed up for, and if they don't they can sue Walmart (as has actually happened).

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But it's not like people that work at walmart have a host of companies giving them great offers, and walmart has to give them a competitive salary and benefits. Walmart knows the people need them a hell of a lot more than walmart needs their workers. These workers have little to no market power, because there are many more people with the skills needed than supply of jobs. This tips the power scales to the employer, and this is why so much abuse and threatening behavior goes on within that company (just try even discussing unionization and you will immediately be reassigned to another part of the store).

And yes they have been sued, but what I find funny is many of these lawsuits would be objectionable to libertarians: sexual/racial/etc. discrimination, inequality in pay based on such factors, libertarians don't even object to an employer saying "have sex with me or you're fired."

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You act like Walmart owes them something. It owes them nothing beyond their mutually agreed upon terms. Did I miss something? Is Walmart a charity now?

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It's disingenious to call it mutual agreement when, as I said before, Walmart has much more power than the employee in deciding the terms of employment. It's not like we're talking about white-collar, college educated professionals that get high salaries and are flown out to interviews. In most cases we are talking about lower-class people with little education who just want to put food on the table and support their family.

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...These workers have little to no market power...

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Meh, there's really not much point arguing because I think this is the crux of the issue. You don't like that the workers don't have much power in the labor market. I say it doesn't matter and that any attempt to correct it with legislation will make matters worse overall. Without legislation, the current situation is what you're gonna get.

Walmart isn't evil, they're trying to maximize profit - this also gives the best social result [ Friedman (pdf) ].

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I didn't necessarily propose legislation. But your statement that the difference between employment and playing video games is meaningless is incorrect, I hope I explained that well enough.

And it's not that they have little power, but substantially less than the employer, this is what makes it coercive.

Think of the extremes.. you say it doesn't matter. What if there is a monopsony on labor. That would be a pretty bad situation for workers, correct? Well as the difference between employers hiring for a specific job and people able and willing to do that job gets larger, the worse off the worker will be. You saw this especially in the industrial revolution, workers were treated practically as animals, because there were many more immigrants who could do "dirty" jobs than jobs available.

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I didn't necessarily propose legislation.

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Then whats your point? Nobody is arguing that walmart provides great jobs. Everybody wants those low wage workers to be able to live decent lives. If you arent interested in finding solutions for the poor, you are just being an indignant socialist for the sake of being an indignant socialist. Its ultimately a self serving point of view.

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Well, I think the workers should unionize themselves, using violence if necessary. I don't mind anti-discrimination stuff that is already in place, also.

And I'm not a socialist, which shows how little you are paying attention.

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I resent that they claim that raising wages and benefits raises prices. That's like saying that when my bonii at absolute poker went down, my WR had to go up. wtf? The prices at walmart are set by market forces, and market forces are a lot more complex than maintaining a certain ROI for walmart.

I realize in a lot of cases, prices do go up to cover higher costs, but this wouldn't necesarrily be on of those cases. A number of things could happen. Walmart could pay more, but end up laying off some of the least useful jobs. They could pay more, make less profit, but still do fine at the end of the day.

People who say that higher wages are always passed on to the consumers should ask themselves why employers don't just imagine wages are higher and raise prices anyway. Walmart charges what they charge to be competitive and profitable. It's not like if employees suddenly started making less, then walmart would lower prices even further.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

Penn and Teller would have been in serious trouble if they interviewed Costco CEO Jim Sinegal, who pays employees more than 40% more than what wal-mart subsidiary sam's club pays. Costco has shown that high wages and low prices can go together just fine.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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I resent that they claim that raising wages and benefits raises prices. That's like saying that when my bonii at absolute poker went down, my WR had to go up. wtf? The prices at walmart are set by market forces, and market forces are a lot more complex than maintaining a certain ROI for walmart.

I realize in a lot of cases, prices do go up to cover higher costs, but this wouldn't necesarrily be on of those cases. A number of things could happen. Walmart could pay more, but end up laying off some of the least useful jobs. They could pay more, make less profit, but still do fine at the end of the day.

People who say that higher wages are always passed on to the consumers should ask themselves why employers don't just imagine wages are higher and raise prices anyway. Walmart charges what they charge to be competitive and profitable. It's not like if employees suddenly started making less, then walmart would lower prices even further.

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Well, margins in retail are RAZOR thin; Walmart achieves their impressive profits by having very low admin costs and by selling a gigantic amount of merchandize. If labor costs go up in any kind of meaningful way, it is definitely going to impact prices on the shelf.

If employees did start making less, Walmart might lower their prices, it depends on the elasticity of demand of their consumers. I honestly don't know if they would or not, it's a tough question to figure out if dropping prices like that would raise their profit.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

Unions already use violence and deception to form in many cases. Wal-Mart does the only thing it can to prevent unionization, any store that votes to unionize is shut down immediately. They write the entire investment off as a loss and move on.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

We don't even need to go that far. If labor costs get driven down another company will lower their prices to steal Wal Marts business, and Wal Mart will need to respond.

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Costco might have a better model, it is hard to tell. If Jim's correct then they will put Wal Mart out of business. In a free market we let these people duke it out to see whose better.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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Well, I think the workers should unionize themselves, using violence if necessary. I don't mind anti-discrimination stuff that is already in place, also.


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Thats fine, then walmart should be able to use violence to defend itself. In the meantime everyone pays the costs of lost production, further reducing the workers standard of living. Not much of a solution.

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And I'm not a socialist, which shows how little you are paying attention

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There's how many people on this board? I dont keep a flow chart of everyones beliefs. I mean if you honestly dont care about figuring out solutions for poor workers then whats the point of coming on this board? Its simply indignant mental masterbation.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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I especially enjoy the part where Penn replies to people that are being interviewed via voice over. It's better that was, because I don't like when experts have a chance to respond.



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I don't consider Robert Greenwald to be an expert on anything. I wish they would have interviewed a good left-wing economist from the Economic Policy Institute.

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Unions already use violence and deception to form in many cases. Wal-Mart does the only thing it can to prevent unionization, any store that votes to unionize is shut down immediately. They write the entire investment off as a loss and move on.

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Oh yes, the unions using violence and deception.. hahaha

I don't think you understand, employees that even talk about unions are told they will be fired, and are moved to another area of the store. Unions are not the problem here.

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Costco might have a better model, it is hard to tell. If Jim's correct then they will put Wal Mart out of business. In a free market we let these people duke it out to see whose better.

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A free market only exists in theory.

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Thats fine, then walmart should be able to use violence to defend itself. In the meantime everyone pays the costs of lost production, further reducing the workers standard of living. Not much of a solution.

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That is absurd. Walmart already uses coercion and violence against it's employees, so that would be nothing new. The whole point of organization would be to prevent these acts, and fight for better working conditions.

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can you provide us with an example where walmart used physical violence against its employees?

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A free market only exists in theory.

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Only because people like you believe that violence is the best way to solve your problems.

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The whole point of organization would be to prevent these acts, and fight for better working conditions.



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If you really wanted to increase the wages of walmart workers you would fight against the actual causes of low wages. Walmart is the effect not the cause. Taxation and regulation reduces the demand for labour which then allows walmart to hire people for minimum wage. Any sort of solution that is directed at walmart will only further reduce the demand for labour. Violently attacking walmart only encourages them to close stores, which further reduces the demand for labour.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where we could enact violence on people and they stuck around to do business with us. Unfortunately most businesses arent going to stay in an unprofitable realtionship with their workers. It therefore seems unreasonable to rely on violence to increase the wages of walmart workers.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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So why should we care about the opinions of rich white men that have probably never been in a walmart voluntarily?

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I have no idea. I don't really care what they think.

Why should I care about your opinion?

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Shouldn't we be more interested in people involved with the company? They can speak about the constant abuse that goes on within the company.

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It's so abusive that they keep working there.

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Oh right, but no one's making them working there, no one has a gun to their head, so I guess it's ok then.

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Basically. Actions > words.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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You're making a meaningless arbitrary distinction.

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How the hell is it either of those? There's a distinction between things you have to do, even if you don't want to do them (jobs, for one) and things you do because you really want to do them out of your own volition.

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What if he's playing video poker professionally, so that he can avoid working at WalMart?

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Walmart provides that paycheck. The employees by definition must prefer working at walmart to the alternative or they wouldn't be there!

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Does not follow. They are there because they have to work to get money, not necessarily because they prefer being there to not working. This is why my distinction is not "arbitrary and meaningless." You play video games because you prefer doing so to not doing so, and you are free to quit at any time.

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Where did you get this idea that he's doing it for leisure?

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You can't quit your job unless you have another one lined up already.

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Sure you can. People do it all the time. The fact that you squandered your money and have no savings isn't your employer's fault.

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I think they should get a job at Walmart and see how it goes.

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It would probably suck. So what?

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So why should we care about the opinions of rich white men that have probably never been in a walmart voluntarily? Shouldn't we be more interested in people involved with the company? They can speak about the constant abuse that goes on within the company.

Oh right, but no one's making them working there, no one has a gun to their head, so I guess it's ok then.

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When I played video poker I sure got abused while waiting for the big pay days. Nobody was forcing me to do it but I stayed of my own free will because I knew I was better off playing than not playing.

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Not analagous, you need to work <font color="red">at WalMart</font> to make a living (unless you are independently wealthy), playing video games on the other hand is a luxury. You can quit playing whenever you want and no harm done, but for many people you need that paycheck every week or someone doesn't eat.

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Here's the implied fallacy.

Re: Penn and Teller on Walmart
 

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But one thing is a luxury and one is a necessity. I can't freely choose to quit my job at walmart in the same manner i freely choose to stop playing video games.

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You can't? I quit my job a few months ago. Now, granted, I wasn't working at WalMart, but the job police didn't come by and try to stop me from quitting.

You're conflating coercion initiated by other people and economic and biological realities. WalMart doesn't cause your hunger, then use that to extort you into working for them.

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But it's not like people that work at walmart have a host of companies giving them great offers, and walmart has to give them a competitive salary and benefits. Walmart knows the people need them a hell of a lot more than walmart needs their workers.

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So what?

WalMart needs its customers a hell of a lot more than than the customers need WalMart. Is it unjust for customers to use this leverage to get WalMart to offer lower prices?

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These workers have little to no market power, because there are many more people with the skills needed than supply of jobs. This tips the power scales to the employer, and this is why so much abuse and threatening behavior goes on within that company (just try even discussing unionization and you will immediately be reassigned to another part of the store).

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Gosh, that sounds scary. Reassigned to the Lawn and Garden siberia!

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It's disingenious to call it mutual agreement when, as I said before, Walmart has much more power than the employee in deciding the terms of employment. It's not like we're talking about white-collar, college educated professionals that get high salaries and are flown out to interviews. In most cases we are talking about lower-class people with little education who just want to put food on the table and support their family.

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What difference does this make? College educated white collar professionals don't need to eat? They don't have families?

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can you provide us with an example where walmart used physical violence against its employees?

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Walmart has repeatedly locked in employees over night.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4146540/

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Only because people like you believe that violence is the best way to solve your problems.

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Actually it's because it's never existed in history, what the hell kind of response is this?

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If you really wanted to increase the wages of walmart workers you would fight against the actual causes of low wages. Walmart is the effect not the cause. Taxation and regulation reduces the demand for labour which then allows walmart to hire people for minimum wage. Any sort of solution that is directed at walmart will only further reduce the demand for labour. Violently attacking walmart only encourages them to close stores, which further reduces the demand for labour.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where we could enact violence on people and they stuck around to do business with us. Unfortunately most businesses arent going to stay in an unprofitable realtionship with their workers. It therefore seems unreasonable to rely on violence to increase the wages of walmart workers.

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Most regulations are fought for by corporations to levy power against other corporations. Walmart also takes in billions in government subsidies each year. Where's the attacks against Walmart for doing that?

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I have no idea. I don't really care what they think.

Why should I care about your opinion?

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Then why were they brought up? You don't have to care about what I say (you clearly don't), but I am at least aware of the horrid labor relations walmart has had, which P/T apparently are not.


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Basically. Actions &gt; words.

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This is why I'm not a libertarian. Just because someone isn't putting a gun to your head doesn't mean it's not coercive. The employer has a large amount of power over his/her employees, and there are plenty of people with the ability to do these kind of jobs. Do you think the boss needs worker X as much as worker X needs their boss? Please.

Just to clarify, an example: A boss tells a female employee: "You must have sex with me or you're fired."

Is that coercive?

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What if he's playing video poker professionally, so that he can avoid working at WalMart?

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Please tell me you are joking.

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Where did you get this idea that he's doing it for leisure?

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What else would you call playing video games in your spare time? I assume he doesn't play video games for a living, that's pretty rare.

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Sure you can. People do it all the time. The fact that you squandered your money and have no savings isn't your employer's fault.

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And here we go again. What people? People that have skills that are in high demand by other employers, sure. People that have little to no education and not any specialized skills are not exactly being wooed by other employers.

You seem to think the employee-boss relationship is a completely equal economic transaction. They have a job, you need a job, either of you can opt out at any time. Well it's not that easy.

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Here's the implied fallacy.

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This thread is about walmart and people working there.