200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

200/400 oe game. 50 ante 75 bringin. villain is bill gazes. hes had alot of tournament success but also seems like a fairly good cash game player.

not one of my hearts were dead throughout the whole hand.

3rd:

2-BRINGIN-fold
Q-fold
J-fold
3-call-call
T-fold
KsKh-3h-Raise

4th:

KsKh-3h4h-BET
32-call

5th:

KsKh-3h4h8h-CHECK-call
325-bet

6th:

KsKh-3h4h8hJc-CHECK-call
3256-bet

if i brick 7th do i still checkcall?


how did i play the hand? btw, bill's board was pretty rainbow.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
200/400 oe game. 50 ante 75 bringin. villain is bill gazes. hes had alot of tournament success but also seems like a fairly good cash game player.

not one of my hearts were dead throughout the whole hand.

3rd:

2-BRINGIN-fold
Q-fold
J-fold
3-call-call
T-fold
KsKh-3h-Raise

4th:

KsKh-3h4h-BET
32-call

5th:

KsKh-3h4h8h-CHECK-call
325-bet

6th:

KsKh-3h4h8hJc-CHECK-call
3256-bet

if i brick 7th do i still checkcall?


how did i play the hand? btw, bill's board was pretty rainbow.

[/ QUOTE ]


I kinda like leading 5th given how strong you are versus a hand that has paired. I would also be very surprised if he limps A4 and fairly surprised if he limps 643.

On 6th the pot is too small to peel, even with your flush draw. Pretty much your best hope is that your opponent has 2 pair, which says a lot about how bad the situation is.

If you do peel my first thought was that you definitely have to make a crying call with one pair.

Actually I'm not so sure about that though.

If you make some reasonable assumptions about his 3rd street distribution (for example he would not limp a low hand with an A or play a razz hand with an 8), he is probably too likely to have a straight or 2 pair to make calling the river profitable.

I think the fact that you may not be able to make a crying call on the river with KK supports the idea that you can't call 6th.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

$300 antes + 75 BI + 6SBs + 4 BBs = 3175 + river BB equals 3575/2 = you being laid the price of 1787.5 to 400 on the rivhar

I would probably fold UI on the end

I thought you played the hand pretty well. 5th is definitly a check-call IMO. It sucks that the cards fell that way they did on 6th because you have to call...I think.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

I don't see how you can fold 7th when villain could easily have just a low hand. The pot is way to big to fold for one bet. If you are going to fold, fold 6th.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

Bills bet on 5th seems to indicate a lot of strength - does anyone consider bailing at that point? There is 1175 out there and youre often going to be putting in a further 1200 trying to get half of that back. How did you interpret his 5th street bet TS? That is key here...

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bills bet on 5th seems to indicate a lot of strength - does anyone consider bailing at that point? There is 1175 out there and youre often going to be putting in a further 1200 trying to get half of that back. How did you interpret his 5th street bet TS? That is key here...

[/ QUOTE ]
You certainly could fold 5th, but I don't think the 5th street bet means anything nut that he has the better razz hand showing.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

If villian were solid, I think I'd actually prefer to see you bet 5th - and consider folding to a raise. Not saying I'd fold to the raise, but once you check 5th he's betting any pair w/ 4 low, any small 2 pr, or anything better. Aside from the info that you gain from his reaction to you betting 5th, you set it up to where he'd possibly fold 2 small pair on the river.

That's a tough spot. You really don't have much choice with your big draw, and can't really be faulted for acting any number of ways from 5th on.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
200/400 oe game. 50 ante 75 bringin. villain is bill gazes. hes had alot of tournament success but also seems like a fairly good cash game player.

not one of my hearts were dead throughout the whole hand.

3rd:

2-BRINGIN-fold
Q-fold
J-fold
3-call-call
T-fold
KsKh-3h-Raise

4th:

KsKh-3h4h-BET
32-call

5th:

KsKh-3h4h8h- CHECK -call
325-bet

bill's board was pretty rainbow.

[/ QUOTE ]

W/o reading any replies, I don't understand this at all. Wouldn't Bill have raised 3rd w/A4 or 64 in the hole?

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

As a decent balance I think you should call on the end if you make kings up (or a flush obv) and fold if you completely brick. He can easily have two pair + low by 7th if not a straight so it protects you somewhat. I play the rest the same.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

Well, if Bill doesn't have a straight on 6th, he has to have either A7 or 65 in the hole, IMO. I don't think he calls on 4th with 62/32 against xx/3h4h that raised on 3rd.

I think you defo have to call 7th w/K's up, and prolly even w/just the K's.

But I would've folded 6th, esp. after nothing extra went in on 5th, and a call practically commits you to another check-call. If it's wrong at all, it can't be by much against the limited range of hands he could have here.

Billy's not an idiot, the pot's small, and 6th was just an ugly, ugly affair.

I agree that the most interesting question is what do you do if you bet out on 6th and Billy raises. Is it ever a good play to wait to raise w/a wheel or strt 6, at least some of the time, against a board like 3h4h8h?

Can you fold KKh/3h4h8h after xx/325r raises you on 5th after limping on 3rd against non-scary upcards?

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

I like the way you have played it. 5th is def a c/c I think betting is terrible there. A large percentage of the time you when you bet you will be raised. If you check a bet ges in almost always there even when you are ahead. No way you fold 6th. Fold the river if u dont improve though.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the way you have played it. 5th is def a c/c I think betting is terrible there. A large percentage of the time you when you bet you will be raised. If you check a bet ges in almost always there even when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]


It depends on whether that 'almost always' is true.

When you check 5th he will think you either made 88 + low draw or made an 8 low. It seems to me he should often check behind when he has a low pair.

If he will rarely check behind, then yes, you should definitely just check and avoid the risk of a raise from a freerolling, possibly scooping hand.

[ QUOTE ]
No way you fold 6th. Fold the river if u dont improve though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can be so confident about the 6th call.

If we assume for the moment that you are up against a made low you are getting effectively 2.47:1 on your 6th street call, with severe reverse implied odds on 7th (for when you make 2 pair and he has a straight.)

If he has 2 pair you will improve about 41% of the time to the best hand, but your actual equity is 33% because he can escape with the low.

Basically... I don't know. But I know you need 2 pair with no straight to be a very strong possibility for him, and I'm not really seeing that.

It seems to me there is a good chance he would have played 4th or 5th differently with a hand like that.

OTOH his 3rd street limp kind of does feel like he started with a baby pair to me.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

you seem highly worried that he might take a free card if he has a pair on 5th. if he has a pair + low draw our equity is roughly 55%. the equity loss of getting raised makes betting horrible.

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=7s8&b=&...Kc+Kh+3h+4h+8h

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

I'm confused as to this:

Why not bet the 5th? You're on a flush draw, and it won't trick him into thinking you have it, but the doubt begins to exist.

Or, out of Super System, check raise 5th and try to get a free card on 6th. That gets you all the way to 7th on 2 bets rather than 3. Do you not do this because he'll just reraise again with the razz hand?

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

assuming he always bets 5th when you check, obviously check call is best. Youre stuck with the hand when you catch another low heart on 6th and folding on the end would be horrible even when you brick...dontcha love playing high pairs in stud 8 [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
you seem highly worried that he might take a free card if he has a pair on 5th. if he has a pair + low draw our equity is roughly 55%. the equity loss of getting raised makes betting horrible.

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=7s8&b=&...Kc+Kh+3h+4h+8h

[/ QUOTE ]


Your logic sounds compelling but I don't know. If you consider a few more types of hands it's not so clear to me:

Razz hand + pair = ~59% equity for us
Two pair = about ~65% equity for us
Made low plus open-ender = ~40% equity for us (surprising)
Made low straight = ~23% equity for us (toast)


If we think he will bet most of his one pair hands, or if we think we cannot limit his 3rd street distribution at all, then it's a definite check.

But to me it rather feels like he has a razz hand or he started with a low pair. I may be wrong but I still kinda like a bet.

But certainly your line is reasonable. I find the 6th street decision a lot more interesting.

Also if he has made a low with an 8 down he will probably not raise us.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

I'd probably bet fifth, but I like the way you played this one. I'd call on the river, but I always call on the river.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
assuming he always bets 5th when you check, obviously check call is best. Youre stuck with the hand when you catch another low heart on 6th and folding on the end would be horrible even when you brick...dontcha love playing high pairs in stud 8 [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

After thinking about, one has to call unimproved on 7th as there's a decent chance Bill has A7x, 76x, or 75x in the hole.

I also now think betting out or check-calling on 5th are prolly roughly even, and 6th is almost certainly a check-call (tho it does commit you to call unimproved on 7th IMO).

Be funny if Billy has 65, 22, 33, or 55 in the hole, and OP spikes a heart on the end to scoop. I actually do think he would've played 33/3 this way.

Very interesting hand that does indeed show the suckyness of high pairs in 7/8.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

Betting 5th is just silly. Any pair and low draw can raise here and most likely have an equity edge doing so.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting 5th is just silly. Any pair and low draw can raise here and most likely have an equity edge doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is simply not correct. Check twodimes.

Also remember we are representing a low or a flush so we would rarely get raised by such a hand anyway.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

I don't have much to add here, but if I caught the 6h or 7h rather than the 8 on 5th, I'd bet. I'd also consider betting an offsuit 6. With the 8, there's no way he's going to make a bad 6th street fold, so there's no reason to bet it.

Also, WTF is he open-limping with in this ante structure with just a T and a 3 behind him?

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

i dont know what hed open limp with here and i think people might be weighting his hand range a little too much based on it. hes a fairly cooky player, i think he could have anything he would raise with.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

Bet 5th, he can't raise that often and once you check, your hand is face up.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet 5th, he can't raise that often and once you check, your hand is face up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think about 6th/7th?

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

"Kooky"?

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet 5th, he can't raise that often and once you check, your hand is face up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think about 6th/7th?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the way 5th went, I think we can only win anything is with a flush.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet 5th, he can't raise that often and once you check, your hand is face up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think about 6th/7th?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the way 5th went, I think we can only win anything is with a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that makes it a fold.

We're getting something like 5:1 on 6th, are something better than 4:1 to make a flush, but obviously we will seldom be scooping when we hit it.

Just wondering because not many people seem to like a fold there.

Re: 200/400 stud8 tough spot vs bill gazes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that makes it a fold.

We're getting something like 5:1 on 6th, are something better than 4:1 to make a flush, but obviously we will seldom be scooping when we hit it.

Just wondering because not many people seem to like a fold there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have to breathe deep and send this one in, Mutombo.