Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

Who here doesn’t like the NL section of Doyle Brunson’s Super/System?

I know that many people love Doyle's NL advice, and some people here love it in an almost "Love me Daddy" pseudo-sexual, male crush kind of way. Really creepy.

For the most part, however, it seems like it has become "cool" to hate on Doyle's NL cash game advice.

I was wondering if some of you S/S haters could provide some examples of where and why you think Doyle's advice is flawed. Or it not actually flawed, just not applicable in today’s games? I'd really like to get a conversation going on this.

Now, lots of people like to chime in on threads like this one with one line replies like "That won't work on-line" or "Playing that way is a good way to go broke." You then go your way, confident in your intellectual superiority and feeling all smug about how you told off all those smarmy 2+2 know-it-alls. However, a reply like that doesn't actually say anything. WHY won't it work on-line? HOW will playing like that make you go broke?

I'd love to hear from some of you, on both sides of the isle.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

I admit to only skimming through the section myself so I won't say I'm qualified to give much of an answer, but I would like to hear others opinions.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

well i like his section on playing suited connectors like 8 7s. ive been able to break quite a bit of player who try to put in a small raise pre flop with AA,KK or QQ. I follow his post flop advice if you miss the flop just throw your hand away to a raise. if you hit the flop with two pairs trips or a straight then bet a good amount and hope your opponent calls or puts you all in. Ive made quite a bit of profit this way. you will be suprised how many players slow play AA or KK preflop then they see a small harmless flop like 763 and play it fast either a big bet or all in after you raise. ITs like they get married to there hand so easily. Just remeber only to play these hands if there isnt such a big raise preflop otherwise you can go broke.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

Doyle qualifies his advice by saying he plays like that against good players and with a deep stack. Because of these qualifiers, I do not generally consider his advice to be appropriate to online play, where, as often as not at ssnl and msnl, you are playing against short-ish stacks and players Doyle would class as bad.

His advice in those situations in s/s is just to show them a better hand.

That said, in position, multi-way, small suited connectors can make you a lot of money.

His advice to play AA and KK slowly after the flop is probably -EV at ssnl, where you are giving up value to lots of inferior hands that will call you down. A speed somewhat faster than Doyle plays against world class players is probably more profitable at ssnl.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle qualifies his advice by saying he plays like that against good players and with a deep stack. Because of these qualifiers, I do not generally consider his advice to be appropriate to online play, where, as often as not at ssnl and msnl, you are playing against short-ish stacks and players Doyle would class as bad.

His advice in those situations in s/s is just to show them a better hand.

That said, in position, multi-way, small suited connectors can make you a lot of money.

His advice to play AA and KK slowly after the flop is probably -EV at ssnl, where you are giving up value to lots of inferior hands that will call you down. A speed somewhat faster than Doyle plays against world class players is probably more profitable at ssnl.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the deep stack part, but wouldn't a poor player be even better as they will be more willing to stack off with an overpair than a good player would?

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

There are many situation with MTTs and SNGs when the stacks are not nearly as deep as cash games.

Also, his advice on aggression works best for a tight game, which would typically be online cash games, live MTTs, and late in MTTs, but not live cash games or early in low buyin online MTTs.

The advice to limp a suited connector UTG may often not be best. In a tournament, this is often a fold.

He also advises limping small pairs, suited connectors, and in early position big pairs. It is usually better to sometimes open limp and sometimes raise these hands.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

The best indepth chapter in the whole book is Sklansky's Hi Low Split. As for the NL Hold'em section, I don't think it's a winner at the games that 99% of the readers find themselves in.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

[ QUOTE ]
and some people here love it in an almost "Love me Daddy" pseudo-sexual, male crush kind of way. Really creepy.

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sorry, what are we talking about? super-system or a certain publishing company?

i think doyle's section relates to very deep stacks. isn't he talking about 1000BB at some points. not to say the SC advice wouldn't work for 200BB... and i think his opposition are tricky and more aggressive these days.... still a good read and lots of good stuff in the chapter though. a little bit of a lazy cop-out that he barely changed it.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

i think doyles strategy is good if you want to change gears to agressive player and get some players all worked up and playing loose. Then you can go back to being a TAG and bust some one.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

I once had a link in my favorites to the online text .Does anyone have that link?

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker...ldem_poker.cfm

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker...ldem_poker.cfm

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link but it doesnt work. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker...ldem_poker.cfm

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link but it doesnt work. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm at work now. I'll fix it when I get home.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

The link works, the site is presently down.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

Maybe we slashdotted it? Is 2+2 such a juggernaut?

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

PM me. i still have the doyle's poker room copy of supersystem (at the no-limit section)...

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PM me. i still have the doyle's poker room copy of supersystem (at the no-limit section)...

[/ QUOTE ]

And I sort of know someone who has the NL section as a pdf...

Anyway, the link works again.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

Doyle has written that these days he has to take a more conservative approach since there are so many other aggressive players out there and because so many people know that he is typically aggressive.

I think it's good to keep in mind that when SS was written, players were typically very very tight. They didn't really make moves like check-raising, even. When doyle introduced his aggressive style, it rocked their world, and the poker world as a whole.

Nowadays, poker strategies have evolved, and I think the shoving with any hand and any reasonable draw advice is flawed.

Part of my problem with it is how it would actually work in most situations.

For example:

You have AKs UTG and raise 3.5x BB. Button calls. Flop comes K92r. You are first to act. Now, is this where you shove? That would seem silly, since you are only getting called by AA, 99, AK, 22, and K9. Do you make a pot-sized bet and then shove if he comes over the top? It just seems overly donkish to me.

What about the meta-game. In other words, you push, he folds, but your aggression gets him to call you down lightly in the future. Well that is good, unless you are pushing with a draw.

It just doesn't seem smart. But maybe I don't get it.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

I think it's a really good book. Maybe a little overly-simplistic this day in age, but a great (the best?) for a starter NL book.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

Doyles no limit section is not as agressive as you think. he does say not to play suited conectors for a big raise and he also says to lay down your suited connctors if you dont catch a peice of the flop. He also mentions not to play marginal hands if they are unsuited such as KJ, KQ, JQ, J10 because they can get beat with better hands with better kickers like AK. HE also says not to play trash hans such as J7, K9, Qx suited, Jx suited. I believe he also gives great advice on how to play AA, KK, QQ. He also gives great advice on how to play pairs from JJ-22. The oly thing i wish is Doyle would have writen a seperate book for NO limit holdem because the section is so short only like 100 pages.

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

thanks link is ok

Re: Who DOESN’T like Super/System?
 

The postflop stuff is excellent. The preflop stuff is his style in high stakes deep stacked cash games 30 years ago. You would be crazy to apply it in a formulistic way.

With relatively shallow money in tournaments, unsuited broadway cards are more valuable and small pps and suited connectors less valuable than he implies.

I also wouldn't apply his advice on aggression to a live 1/2NL game or early in a low buyin online MTT.