What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Villain is an idiot. He plays any 4, and I mean, literally, any 4. He calls pre-flop raises with anything. He can be aggressive with any piece, and he can be aggressive with nothing but a sense of weakness on the part of the other player.

Stacks are $500.

I am the button with A-A-4-9 rainbow. I max pop it pre-flop to $14, only villain calls, so we're heads up.

Flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Villain checks. I bet pot (something like $40). Villain check-raises pot.

Hero?

I really was at a loss as to what to do here. On the one hand, my bottom two pair could very well be good. On the other hand, his range is so wide, that he could easily have hands that kill me.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

bottom 2 pair is rarely good in this situation. He is more likely to have a better 2-pair or a set. He might just have some kind of wrap but often enough to make it a call? don't know

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

nevermind, I didn't see you flopped 2 pair

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Caveat - I don't play these stakes.

What kind of information does villain have on you? Have you played a lot of hands with V, and does V think you are tight? If you make a PSB preflop, what percentage of the time does this mean you have AAxx, A2xx, xxxx in the perception of others?

Is villain generally profitable post-flop?

I like as played, and I fold to the repot, since there's plenty of ways you could be behind, and even in the cases where you are ahead, you are not dramatically ahead, and drawing thin to improve. I don't like checking the flop in position, since this encourages V to put on pressure on turn and river, and a river PSB by villain would be a very difficult decision.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Generally, when I am really confused by an opponent, I will call or fold, almost never reraise. I have a few more questions about the hand. Where did the villian come in from (UTG BB etc). Were there any other limpers before your raise? Is it possible that your pfr looked like a steal? How does villian play strong hands? And lastly what does villian think about you?

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Caveat - I don't play these stakes.

What kind of information does villain have on you? Have you played a lot of hands with V, and does V think you are tight? If you make a PSB preflop, what percentage of the time does this mean you have AAxx, A2xx, xxxx in the perception of others?

Is villain generally profitable post-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played a lot with villain. My pfr from the button where most before me have folded is a fairly wide range but unlikely to have loved this flop except by fluke. Compared to the other players, though, I am probably one of the tightest at the table.

Villain will generally stack off once or twice a night; but on occasion he will hit big. I'd say he is a smaller loser than what I would expect him to be given his play, but that's because the play at this site is so bad.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Generally, when I am really confused by an opponent, I will call or fold, almost never reraise. I have a few more questions about the hand. Where did the villian come in from (UTG BB etc). Were there any other limpers before your raise? Is it possible that your pfr looked like a steal? How does villian play strong hands? And lastly what does villian think about you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good questions.

Villain was UTG+1. But position means nothing to him. Folds around to me.

PFR could easily have looked like a steal, although anyone who plays with this guy knows that attempting a steal after he's called is futile. He ain't folding.

I am not sure how he plays strong hands because I'm not sure I've ever seen him with a strong hand. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] This could easily have been either (a) a strong hand on his part or (b) a play based on perceived weakness in my hand. I can't do any better than that.

What does villain think about me? I think I answered that above. I also suspect that he finds me insanely attractive.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Also, would anyone have checked the flop ... kept the pot under control and tried to get to showdown cheap? I'd been regularly c-betting and taking down pots on janky flops all night, so while I thought about checking I ultimately decided to bet here.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Based on your description of villain he could easily be checkraising here on the theory that your pfr means you have either AAxx or some strong low hand, and that in either case you will have a lot of difficulty calling his checkraise. The problem of course is that your hand only has a significant edge over pure air; if opponent has top pair plus three random cards it's a coin toss.
Nonetheless, based on your description of opponent I think I would repot here. I think the most likely holdings for opponent are top pair, air (or a lower pair), OESD, and two pair or better, in roughly that order. Against that range you're a favorite. Problem of course is that villain will presumably fold air while putting you all-in if he actually has any of the other holdings... so maybe this doesn't work out so well after all. I'll have to look at the math some more.
I've been in similar situations and I think one of the remedies is to raise preflop with some of the middle wraps (TJQK and the like) so that clever opponents can't easily conclude on a flop like this that you are unlikely to have a piece of it. But I haven't actually started doing this yet since I rarely face really tricky and aggressive opponents.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Ok, well I guess since you had been having success with c-betting it has go by feel then. However, here are some quick numbers, JJTQ and J9TQ (set/2Pair +OESD)have you crushed but TJQK (top pair +straight draw) is almost even money.

With the info you have, I think I can fold this hand as played.

IRT your question about flop bet, oftentimes with nutty villians I like to control the pot until I have a more dominating position. In hindsight it is easy to say, just check this flop and see what he does on the turn. However, knowing that villian will probably PSB on turn, I think this is a better scenario for this hand because you will have more information and less money to worry about. I know many people who advocate keeping the pot small with smallish hands.

I have difficulty playing with idiots because they usually dont make any sense, I generally like to tag along until I have them hanging from the tree and then take their stack. Probably best to find a better spot, sounds like villian likes to stack off often enough to make this fold profitable.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I really was at a loss as to what to do here. On the one hand, my bottom two pair could very well be good. On the other hand, his range is so wide, that he could easily have hands that kill me.


[/ QUOTE ]

generally a slightly ahead or way behind situation here. very easily against a set, top&bottom, or top pair w/ OESD.

what does davebreal usually do here? re-raise all-in, and pay off JJxx.. obviously.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

I ran a quick spreadsheet calc, and I also see a fold as follows:

Assumption 1: If Niss repots the flop, V will fold pure air and call with anything else.
Assumption 2: If Niss repots, he will commit if V repots. This makes his EV for these scenarios as follows:
JJxx=$90 (can hit one of two aces to win)
J9 or J4=$181 (can hit the the pair villain does not have to win, or an ace)
OESD = $653 (Niss is ~65% to win)
Jxxx not two pair =$607 (V has one more out than OESD)

If you put together a chart, if you have 30% reason to believe that V has JJ and 70% that V has air, it's a losing play (EV $460), and if you redistribute the 70% among the other possibilities, it's still a losing play.

This is a marginally winning play if you are 60% sure villain has air, or if Villain would push with an overpair to the board. Otherwise, your EV is negative here.

Caveat: I'm not DaveBreal.

Edit: I must have top-pair/OESD blindness. I missed factoring in that combo, and it obv makes the numbers worse. Fold.

Edit 2: I also didn't factor in V having backdoor low draws, of which Niss has none. Number drop, obv. Still a fold.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

if you have 30% reason to believe that V has JJ

Sounds rather high based on description of villain as lagtard. But I think that the possibility of villain having a backdoor low does make things quite a bit worse for us; it basically means that we're no longer significant favorites over a wide range of (OESD+low junk) hands. I guess maybe this is a fold after all.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Thanks for the posts everyone.

I folded to the re-raise. In addition to being unable to put villain on a hand, and as Dave said it's an ahead by a little or behind by a ton situation, it was in my last orbit and I didn't want to piss away my profit for the night.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you have 30% reason to believe that V has JJ

Sounds rather high based on description of villain as lagtard. But I think that the possibility of villain having a backdoor low does make things quite a bit worse for us; it basically means that we're no longer significant favorites over a wide range of (OESD+low junk) hands. I guess maybe this is a fold after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, just to correct something someone said above, I had no low draw. I was counterfeited by the 4. If my low was live I think I would have shoved.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

fold against this type of villian. also, i think ur questioning ur CBet is a lil too results-oriented. i think the CB is fine, albiet i dont think i PSB here cuz my CBets usually rnt PSBs (usually 75%PSB).

fold is good here, this is nowhere near a +EV edge to push.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

Fold is def. the best play. Your hand is not that strong now, and you hate almost all turn cards in the deck. You dont even have a backdoor low, or flush draw.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold is def. the best play. Your hand is not that strong now, and you hate almost all turn cards in the deck. You dont even have a backdoor low, or flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Warning, I am a huge PL loser.

But this seems like the most solid advice. You're gonna hate almost all turns and you have no backdoor draws of any sort. So you can either re-pot or fold. Against anything that WILL CALL your re-pot will most likely have you crushed or have you at a flip.

Re: What do you do here? (PLO8 $400)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you can either re-pot or fold

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

Calling here is terrible. Prolly lean towards fold. Villian has to assume you have AA, and he either thinks you will fold to pressure (most people won't fold AA on a flop like this) or he likes his hand against AA. Unfortunately, your bottom two pair are only nominally better than AA, and you have no low prospects. I probably fold unless I think I need to make a stand pretty badly, or am kinda tilty.

PS I really think villian did NOT have JJ there. I would expect something more like J9 with straight possibilities.