Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Assume Tiger Woods never plays golf again, after winning his 6th consecutive USGA tourney, 3 Juniors, 3 US Am's. Where does he fall in golf history? Consider the question if he is struck by lightning and dies, or if he were to simply never win another tourney.

Do you think Casey Martin should have been allowed to ride in a cart? I say yes, I think of a poker analogy,, what if a blind man wanted to play poker? Would it be such a big deal for someone to tell him what his cards are, even though you're only supposed to have one player to a hand? Consider a scenario where Casey Martin was possibly the best player in the world. If I am the best, I want him out there, so I can play against him, so we can settle who is the best. I admit fatigue can set in, but its a very small part of the game, just like reading your cards in poker, even though sometimes, you may mistake a club for a diamond. I can certainly understand the other side of the argument, and I think Finchem handled it well by saying the PGA wanted Casey to play, but they wanted it to be on their terms.

Also, if you're not a golfer, please mention that when responding to this, as I think it is important.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Tiger Woods would be remembered as the child prodigy and talented amateur that was tragically struck down. That's about it.

Of course he should be allowed to use a cart. Walking between holes is not golf.

Your poker analogy is stupid.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Casey Martin should not be allowed to use a cart. Walking eighteen holes is certainly more strenuous than riding eighteen holes, and a walker will certainly be more fatigued than a rider at the end of the day. That is an unfair advantage. Not everyone was born to play professional sports. Sorry, Casey.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

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Walking between holes is not golf.

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Ugh.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

No cart for Martin. The govt. had no business even getting involved in this.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

1. If Tiger retired today, he would be the 2nd greatest golfer ever, behind Jack.

2. No cart for Casey.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

tiger would be rememberd as the most talent golfer ever, but still #2 or 3 overall.

of course the guy should have a cart, jesus. i know its golf but these guys are supposed to be athletes...do you really believe that slowly walking ~2 miles while not carrying your own bag should tire out a pro such that the walker really has an actual advantage?

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

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Walking between holes is not golf.

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Ugh.

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what? it is? wtf

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
of course the guy should have a cart, jesus. i know its golf but these guys are supposed to be athletes...do you really believe that slowly walking ~2 miles while not carrying your own bag should tire out a pro such that the walker really has an actual advantage?

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It's closer to 5 miles, and of course riding in a cart is an actual advantage. Ask Ken Venturi. Or any PGA golfer.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Golf carts are lame in competition. imo golf carts are lame out of competition but I guess I understand the need for them in certain situations most notably when the golf course is full of people on the weekends taking 150 shots and/or for fat people.

Clearly someone who uses a cart in competition has an advantage over someone who does not.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Golf carts are lame in competition. imo golf carts are lame out of competition but I guess I understand the need for them in certain situations most notably when the golf course is full of people on the weekends taking 150 shots and/or for fat people.

Clearly someone who uses a cart in competition has an advantage over someone who does not.

[/ QUOTE ]

???

I think most pro's can find their way to a treadmill a few times a week and be able to manage the vicious hike. (Sorry, Phil.)

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

C'mon dude, common sense tells us walking 18 holes is tougher than riding in a cart for 18 holes. Do I really have to argue this?

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ask Ken Venturi.

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No thanks.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

What a strange thread.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
What a strange thread.

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No kidding. I kept rereading everything, trying to figure out how this related. Then I realized OP just asked completely unrelated questions.

As for Woods, if he died before going pro he'd be one of the great "What ifs", sort of like Phar Lapp (extra credit if anyone knows who that is).

Casey, meh. I'm sure walking for 4 hours in the sun is harder than riding and causes some fatigue, and that fatigue could indeed induce poorer play. But on that note, you're walking, not running, it's 4 hours so you can take breaks, sit down, drink lots of water, and the game itself is a series of very short discrete actions, so it's not like a marathon. No one tried to do a study to see how scores differed (even among amateurs) in this context? That'd be interesting info IMO, and probably should be dispositive if the methodology is correct.

But a lot of this is just bias from someone who runs 5 miles a day, often in mid-afternoon in the summer, and finds whining about walking a few miles over several hours unbelievably weak. Ok, it probably has an effect, I get it. I also think we should ban crowd noise at basketball games, as it clearly interferes with the concentration and self-esteem of the athletes.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
But a lot of this is just bias from someone who runs 5 miles a day, often in mid-afternoon in the summer, and finds whining about walking a few miles over several hours unbelievably weak. Ok, it probably has an effect, I get it. I also think we should ban crowd noise at basketball games, as it clearly interferes with the concentration and self-esteem of the athletes.

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I think what you meant to say is that deaf people shouldn't be allowed to play because it gives them an unfair advantage.

Without getting in to the whole deal of how big of an advantage it is not to walk the course, I was always amazed at the resistance that PGA and its players had towards Martin. Had he been successful, he would have been a huge draw to the tour, and this was at a time when Tiger's drawing power wasn't as established as it is now. I guess they were worried about a precedent, but Martin seemed like a pretty unique situation to me.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Tiger Woods would be a name most people outside golf or sports wouldn't know, duh I guess. Kind of like Len Bias maybe.

Not familiar with this Martin situation, but I think I heard about it awhile ago. Either everyone walks or everyone has the option to ride a cart.

I'm not a golfer.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]

But a lot of this is just bias from someone who runs 5 miles a day, often in mid-afternoon in the summer, and finds whining about walking a few miles over several hours unbelievably weak. Ok, it probably has an effect, I get it. I also think we should ban crowd noise at basketball games, as it clearly interferes with the concentration and self-esteem of the athletes.


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The problem is not the size of the advantage conferred, its the breaking of the rule. The rules are there to (attempt) to remove ambiguity and define the winner of the contest, and all players are supposed to have rules applied equally. Allowing one person extra equipment, extra time or any consideration is a violation of the spirit of the game.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

I'm not saying walking 18 holes should kill anyone. I'm not saying someone in shape should find it impossible to overcome. Hell, I'm not even saying golfers are athletes.

I'm saying if you take ten million golfers who ride in carts for 18 holes and you take ten million golfers who walk for 18 holes, when you compare you are going to find that the walkers are more fatigued than the riders are overall. Usually in sports, when you are fatigued you do not perform as well as when you are not fatigued.

So in competition, I think making carts available is unfair and I think that statement is pretty close to fact.

My opinion is that if your intention is to go out and compete in an outdoor environment, why in the hell would you spend half your time sitting in a cart... and pay nearly as much as you paid for your round (or more) to do it? So I don't get it at all from the P.O.V. of the majority of players I see using them. But at the same time I understand the need for the courses to have them available to move the players along quickly and for certain players who may have physical needs to have them available.

Someone should make a graph of the rise in the use of carts on the golf course and compare it to the graph of the rising obesity in America. It would make for a good term paper.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Lol at the the golfers talking about the physical strain of walking the course and how its such an integral part of the game, yet they still have someone else carry their bag.

Would it have been against the rules for him to have a huge caddy carry him everywhere?

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Tiger Woods is obviously the best golfer ever. I'm not sure how it can be debated. The only argument would be who had a better career, Tiger or Nicklaus. If Tiger died today the answer is obviously Nicklaus.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Pure jokes.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

OK I GOT MY ASS KICKED BY A FAT PERSON IN A CART [censored] YOU

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assume Tiger Woods never plays golf again, after winning his 6th consecutive USGA tourney, 3 Juniors, 3 US Am's. Where does he fall in golf history? Consider the question if he is struck by lightning and dies, or if he were to simply never win another tourney.


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If he were to die, be beset by career-ending injury, etc, he would be the greatest "what if?" in the game, would be revered and remembered fondly.

If he were to simply never win again, he would not be remembered fondly, people would be asking all sorts of questions about why the dropoff occurred, and he would not be remembered as fondly.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you think Casey Martin should have been allowed to ride in a cart? I say yes, I think of a poker analogy,, what if a blind man wanted to play poker? Would it be such a big deal for someone to tell him what his cards are, even though you're only supposed to have one player to a hand? Consider a scenario where Casey Martin was possibly the best player in the world. If I am the best, I want him out there, so I can play against him, so we can settle who is the best. I admit fatigue can set in, but its a very small part of the game, just like reading your cards in poker, even though sometimes, you may mistake a club for a diamond. I can certainly understand the other side of the argument, and I think Finchem handled it well by saying the PGA wanted Casey to play, but they wanted it to be on their terms.


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- The poker analogy doesn't fly with me.
- The government should not have gotten involved.

This topic was beaten into the ground on rec.sport.golf while it was actually happening, and the discussion became really annoying really quickly.

I particularly disliked the Chicken Little faction who wrote that an avalanche of cart-riding players with real and suspicious disabilities were going to inundate all levels of qualifying, and gain unfair advantage with their armada of golf carts. This group has fallen strangely silent in the intervening time.

ETA: I'm a 15-hdcp weekend player.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

I rank Tiger #2 all-time if his career ends tomorrow. He's 5th in wins, 2nd in majors won. It's close, but I believe his accomplishments put him past Snead and Hogan, but still shy of Nicklaus.

I would have allowed Martin to ride a cart. I don't care how a guy hits the shots, or arrives at the location to hit 'em, just how many he hits.

I was a golfer before back trouble.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Not that this adds or detracts from the debate but I actually played in a poker tourney with a blind man. They let him have his daughter sit next to him and look at his hole cards and she whispered in his ear what they were and then he told her whether to bet or fold.

It could have been argued that it was a disadvantage to all of us at that table since we got in considerably fewer hands than the average table since it took him so long on all of his actions.

But personally, I was glad to pay that small price to allow this man to be able to play despite his handicap.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

1) All those saying Tiger is the second best ever is misreading the OP. It asks if he ONLY had an amateur career. E.g., he died in 1996. Obviously he wouldn't be considered 2nd best of all time had he died in 1996.

2) All those mentioning being tired after walking 18 holes, I thought it was a given that Martin, even with the cart, was more tired after 18 holes because of his disease.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

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2) All those mentioning being tired after walking 18 holes, I thought it was a given that Martin, even with the cart, was more tired after 9 holes because of his disease.

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Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assume Tiger Woods never plays golf again, after winning his 6th consecutive USGA tourney, 3 Juniors, 3 US Am's. Where does he fall in golf history? Consider the question if he is struck by lightning and dies, or if he were to simply never win another tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

As someone else said, if he were to die after winning his sixth USGA tourney as an amateur (before his 1997 Masters win and all that followed), he would be remembered along the same lines as Len Bias, a talented successful non-professional.

If Tiger were to die now, imho he would be considered the greatest golfer ever. He's on pace to pass the major record of Nicklaus, easily, and he has beaten Nicklaus' record in just about everything. Were he to continue playing and never win another major (doubtful), the argument may be different.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think Casey Martin should have been allowed to ride in a cart? I say yes, I think of a poker analogy,, what if a blind man wanted to play poker? Would it be such a big deal for someone to tell him what his cards are, even though you're only supposed to have one player to a hand? Consider a scenario where Casey Martin was possibly the best player in the world. If I am the best, I want him out there, so I can play against him, so we can settle who is the best. I admit fatigue can set in, but its a very small part of the game, just like reading your cards in poker, even though sometimes, you may mistake a club for a diamond. I can certainly understand the other side of the argument, and I think Finchem handled it well by saying the PGA wanted Casey to play, but they wanted it to be on their terms.

Also, if you're not a golfer, please mention that when responding to this, as I think it is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, without a doubt he should be able to ride in a cart. Golf is a game of shot-making, not endurance. As for having a so-called advantage riding in a cart, Casey is more tired after playing 18 in a cart than anyone else is walking 18. The only argument you can make is that the PGA is allowed to make their own rules. My argument to that is that the PGA represents the identification of the best player in world. The best player in the world is the best shotmaker, not the one who has the most endurance. I've played in tournaments throughout the Midwest, including state golf association events, and I've ridden in many of them (just not USGA or college events). Not one of those tournaments have ever been declared NULL due to riding in carts. None of the trophies I have has an asterisk on them. As for keeping a level playing field (by not having carts), why don't we level the field for Casey by breaking the feet of every other competitor?

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Used to be a guy who played at Commerce who was blind. He would sit in the 1 seat and the dealer would whisper his cards to him and tell him the board.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) All those saying Tiger is the second best ever is misreading the OP. It asks if he ONLY had an amateur career. E.g., he died in 1996. Obviously he wouldn't be considered 2nd best of all time had he died in 1996.

2) All those mentioning being tired after walking 18 holes, I thought it was a given that Martin, even with the cart, was more tired after 18 holes because of his disease.

[/ QUOTE ]

#2 is irrelevant to the conversation and can't be measured anyaway.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Mentioned once but not again, professional golfers are such bitches that they want complete silence to hit a stationary object. Martin should have the cart just to [censored] with them.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

I don't mind if Martin gets a cart, but if he gets one, everyone gets one. I just can't stand the idea of one guy getting an exception to the rule.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Do handicap parking spaces also bother you? Accomodations for people with physical handicaps are sometimes necessary so that those people can work and live somewhat like the rest of us.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do handicap parking spaces also bother you? Accomodations for people with physical handicaps are sometimes necessary so that those people can work and live somewhat like the rest of us.

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"Like the rest of us" ? I don't know about you, pal, but 99.9% of the people I know aren't playing on the PGA Tour. It's an extreme privilege reserved for the best of the best. Parking spaces are for everyone. Big difference.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Wow, you've totally missed the point.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do handicap parking spaces also bother you? Accomodations for people with physical handicaps are sometimes necessary so that those people can work and live somewhat like the rest of us.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a really bad analogy because the PGA is for elite golfers. I don't feel like ruining this thread with another horrible analogy so I'm not going to.
I basically agree with Noodleman from a business perspective Casey Martin would have been a huge draw and there wouldn't be that big an issue of setting a precedent because his circumstance is so rare. By not allowing the Casey to play the PGA appeared cold and callous on an issue they used to promote their organization.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

I agree that the thinking that a bunch of other pros were going to use carts is retarded.

As far as the handicap spots, I agree, and maybe we should also let shorter players in the NBA use stilts. Maybe players who can't jump quite as high can use trampoline shoes. Maybe players with a bum leg can even use carts to get up and down the floor.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

Wow, talk about bad analogies. It's not like they are saying he should be allowed to hit from the ladies tees you know.

Re: Tiger Woods, just as an amateur, Casey Martin
 

I don't see how it's much different. We're talking about how far the rights of disabled people should be extended in regards to competitive and/or professional sports. Golf, while not as athletic as some of the other major pro sports, is still a pro sport.

Fact of the matter is I'm not even that anti-Casey Martin and what he was trying to do because he had unusual circumstances that I think deserved some debate. My beef is more with people who play in amateur competitive tournaments and absolutely possess the ability to walk but choose to ride in a cart because it's easier and because it's an advantage - especially in extreme weather one way or the other.