Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Ellis Burks is at seat 0 with $7882.
Liddl is at seat 2 with $7092.
YelloSub86 is at seat 3 with $18281.
Bella Di Gio is at seat 4 with $3197.
The button is at seat 2.

YelloSub86 posts the small blind of $25.
Bella Di Gio posts the big blind of $50.

Ellis Burks: -- -- -- --
Liddl: -- -- -- --
YelloSub86: As Kh Ad Qc
Bella Di Gio: -- -- -- --

Pre-flop:

Ellis Burks raises to $125. Liddl calls. YelloSub86
re-raises to $550. Bella Di Gio folds. Ellis Burks
calls. Liddl calls.

Flop (board: Ts 7c Jh):

YelloSub86: ?

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]

Flop (board: Ts 7c Jh):

YelloSub86: ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta water that pot, so $500-$800.

The sad thing is that because you are OOP you probably won't make as much off this hand as might otherwise and you'll probably lose more if you whiff. This nice hand is like getting the gift of your favorite bottle of wine but not having a corkscrew opener.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Wow i like the post. Interesting hand, but this is mostly player dependent. So, without any reads my standard default play is check because if you bet out villian is going to pot this many many times and then what is your play? I would rather keep this pot small so I can see the turn cheaply cause you are not folding. Unfortunately your implied odds are not very good, but with your hand you do not need much to continue. You may be giving a free card, but chances are you are probably behind or maybe slighty ahead and giving a free card is not always bad if you are the one who catches because players will often think you are on AA and no draw so if you do hit the turn you may be on to something. Most of this depends how the player as been playing overall.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

My default play here will be to bet out 3/4 to pot 30% and check with intention of c/r pot 60% of time.

Faaaaairly happy to get money in on this hand regardless of what your action is OOP i.e. whether you bet out or c/r.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I'm just going to go over my thought process here, I know most of it is pretty basic:

You have 12 nut outs if you're behind, and you might well not be. If you could just get it all in right here you would. Which would lead one at first instinct to just bet hoping to be raised, as one of your opponents should have some of this. And of course if they just fold that's fine too.

The problem comes if you just get called. I think they talk about this in the Ciaffone/Reuben book. Being out of position with a pot sized bet left, if you don't hit on the turn you suddenly hate your life. Because now you have much less equity (most likely), no implied odds, and not big enough actual odds vs. most of the hands that will give you action. And if you don't get to see both cards your flop equity was an illusion of course.

I think this leads me to check the flop, looking to raise and get it all in. It's pretty unlikely in this situation that it will get checked around, and even if it does you may not be that unhappy about it. I think mixing betting and checking would be fine too, but I feel a lot more confident that someone will bet if I check than that someone will raise if I bet. Player reads could change this.

Worth noting that because of the preflop action this hand doesn't actually play THAT "deep". Just 2 PSB left, if that.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just going to go over my thought process here, I know most of it is pretty basic:

You have 12 nut outs if you're behind, and you might well not be. If you could just get it all in right here you would. Which would lead one at first instinct to just bet hoping to be raised, as one of your opponents should have some of this. And of course if they just fold that's fine too.

The problem comes if you just get called. I think they talk about this in the Ciaffone/Reuben book. Being out of position with a pot sized bet left, if you don't hit on the turn you suddenly hate your life. Because now you have much less equity (most likely), no implied odds, and not big enough actual odds vs. most of the hands that will give you action. And if you don't get to see both cards your flop equity was an illusion of course.

I think this leads me to check the flop, looking to raise and get it all in. It's pretty unlikely in this situation that it will get checked around, and even if it does you may not be that unhappy about it. I think mixing betting and checking would be fine too, but I feel a lot more confident that someone will bet if I check than that someone will raise if I bet. Player reads could change this.

Worth noting that because of the preflop action this hand doesn't actually play THAT "deep". Just 2 PSB left, if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like your thinking here Bart, especially regarding the "being called" on the flop point. It really will get seriously ugly if you don't hit turn when called flop.

I suppose if you check flop you (1) have the opportunity to get a free card yourself if he checks behind and (2) have the opportunity to go to the felt (or get him to fold) if he bets out and you c/r.

Yes, definitely like a check here OOP. Nice post Bart.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

def CR here. pot will be stabbed at like 95% of the time by one of them regardless of their holdings.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just going to go over my thought process here, I know most of it is pretty basic:

You have 12 nut outs if you're behind, and you might well not be. If you could just get it all in right here you would. Which would lead one at first instinct to just bet hoping to be raised, as one of your opponents should have some of this. And of course if they just fold that's fine too.

The problem comes if you just get called. I think they talk about this in the Ciaffone/Reuben book. Being out of position with a pot sized bet left, if you don't hit on the turn you suddenly hate your life. Because now you have much less equity (most likely), no implied odds, and not big enough actual odds vs. most of the hands that will give you action. And if you don't get to see both cards your flop equity was an illusion of course.

I think this leads me to check the flop, looking to raise and get it all in. It's pretty unlikely in this situation that it will get checked around, and even if it does you may not be that unhappy about it. I think mixing betting and checking would be fine too, but I feel a lot more confident that someone will bet if I check than that someone will raise if I bet. Player reads could change this.

Worth noting that because of the preflop action this hand doesn't actually play THAT "deep". Just 2 PSB left, if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very inclined to agree here. the only thing we're behind and might fold out if T7xx... it's unlikely a JT will fold here.

As an alternative I sometimes will do a sucker 50~200 dollar sucker (where I look like the sucker) bet. This forces the villains to show their hands, and opens some options for the turn, even OOP.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Flop (board: Ts 7c Jh):

YelloSub86 checks. Ellis Burks bets $1300. Liddl
calls. YelloSub86 ?

now what? concensus is to crai, event tho is fairly likely we're up against 98?

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Well being up against 98 doesn't really change anything except for the 1 out. Pretty much any hand that gets in with you on the flop is going to be beating your AKQ draw at the moment, so the 98 straight is no different. The smooth caller however does change things, as between the bettor and caller they're likely to have at least two of your outs tied up.

Still, I like the pressure play here - especially because you have counterfeit protection if you hit your hand on the turn.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well being up against 98 doesn't really change anything except for the 1 out. Pretty much any hand that gets in with you on the flop is going to be beating your AKQ draw at the moment, so the 98 straight is no different. The smooth caller however does change things, as between the bettor and caller they're likely to have at least two of your outs tied up.

Still, I like the pressure play here - especially because you have counterfeit protection if you hit your hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

smooth caller = more money = good

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I'd crai here. It's very possible liddle has something close to yours or set, or two pairs or some other random stuff, just not 89.

With the stack sizes, if they got anything at all, they are pretty much committed, and even though sometimes you'll have only about 25~30% equity, I think you'll have about 40% (ore more) here enough of teh time to make this a profitable, albeit heavy gambooool play.

Ideally burke got nothing and was just stabbing and liddl folds some [censored] two pair since he'd be priced out... or better yet, liddl calls with AKQJ giving you a freeroll... things along those lines, anyway, it's hard for me to not go for a CRAI here, especially after a smooth caller.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

raise to get liddl out

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

You aren't up against 98 that often, if you thought he was likely to only bet with 98 you wouldn't have checked the flop. When you are up against 98 you win the pot 40%+ anyway.

The good thing about checkraising here is you get rid of some hands that do quite well against you that would have shoved if you bet. For example you profit by folding out J876 or Q976 even though you are well ahead of either of those hands.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I don't know, I kind of want the hand to either end right there on the flop or get in a 3 way all in. Either way, I like CRAI.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

shove.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Yeah, definitely crai.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

cri, hope that u get two callers, one with 89 and one with topset.
40%

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Heres what you do miniraise therefore making it look like you have the nuts and getting hands you dont want in to fold and hands you want in to call. Then push on the turn if they just smooothcall. You have a monster draw so you arent in bad shape against any hand. This is the kind of hand you want 2 get 2 callers with.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

What hands that you don't want in will fold to a minraise?

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
cri, hope that u get two callers, one with 89 and one with topset.
40%

[/ QUOTE ]

since im a results whore, heres teh full HH,

Hand #40569655-508 at Meilieha (Pot Limit Omaha)
Started at 21/Mar/07 02:17:15

Ellis Burks is at seat 0 with $7882.
Liddl is at seat 2 with $7092.
YelloSub86 is at seat 3 with $18281.
Bella Di Gio is at seat 4 with $3197.
The button is at seat 2.

YelloSub86 posts the small blind of $25.
Bella Di Gio posts the big blind of $50.

Ellis Burks: -- -- -- --
Liddl: -- -- -- --
YelloSub86: As Kh Ad Qc
Bella Di Gio: -- -- -- --

Pre-flop:

Ellis Burks raises to $125. Liddl calls. YelloSub86
re-raises to $550. Bella Di Gio folds. Ellis Burks
calls. Liddl calls.

Flop (board: Ts 7c Jh):

YelloSub86 checks. Ellis Burks bets $1300. Liddl
calls. YelloSub86 raises to $5400. Ellis Burks goes
all-in for $7332. Liddl goes all-in for $6542.
YelloSub86 calls.

Turn (board: Ts 7c Jh 4d):

(no action in this round)


River (board: Ts 7c Jh 4d Jc):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

Ellis Burks shows 9c Td Tc 3s.
Ellis Burks has Td Tc Ts Jh Jc: full house, tens full of jacks.
Liddl shows 7s 9h 8c Js.
Liddl has 7s Js 7c Jh Jc: full house, jacks full of sevens.
YelloSub86 mucks cards.
(YelloSub86 has As Kh Ad Qc.)


Hand #40569655-508 Summary:

$2 is raked from a total pot of $22906.
$2 is raked from the main pot of $21326.
$0 is raked from side pot #1 of $1580.
Liddl wins the main pot $21324 with full house, jacks full of sevens.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

LOL. you missed the turn AND the river? You played it awful.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I am a little surprised by liddl's holdings. but nice hand, too bad it didn't pan out.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I think there is an argument for folding flop since so many of the cards you need are likely to be in your opponent's hands. Certainly heads up I'd find a fold here.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

liddl is a monkey for just calling that

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

heads up a fold? you're not serious?

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is an argument for folding flop since so many of the cards you need are likely to be in your opponent's hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely something you need to consider, but if you check out some hands at this omaha thing you'll find our hand is still in good shape. Also, folding HU would be very bad.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Ts 7c Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s Tc 9c Td 154 23.12 459 68.92 53 7.96 0.271
Js 7s 8c 9h 222 33.33 391 58.71 53 7.96 0.373
As Qc Ad Kh 237 35.59 429 64.41 0 0.00 0.356

This turned out to be about the worst case scenario for you, except that there could be one more backdoor flush draw out against you. And you're still a money favorite, though the variance is pretty annoyingly high.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is an argument for folding flop since so many of the cards you need are likely to be in your opponent's hands. Certainly heads up I'd find a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh??

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I don't understand why there is all this discussion about shoving the flop. Betting or checking the flop was at least mildly interesting.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a little surprised by liddl's holdings. but nice hand, too bad it didn't pan out.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I like to crai these kinds of flops.

If it goes c/c, then I'd usually pot bricks and make 1/2 PSB if I catch on a non flush card, PSB if it comes a flush(draw) card.

As played I would just call and c/f river UI.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a little surprised by liddl's holdings. but nice hand, too bad it didn't pan out.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

liddl had the nut straight to go with his two pairs on the flop and he didn't raise.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

I probably would have just potted this on the flop as a standard play and occasionally given a weak lead to get someone to go over the top. The goal should definitely be to get all the money in on the flop though. The idea that someone would consider folding this is ridiculous.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have just potted this on the flop as a standard play and occasionally given a weak lead to get someone to go over the top. The goal should definitely be to get all the money in on the flop though. The idea that someone would consider folding this is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this advice.
The issue is whether enough of our outs are dead to justify folding. I don't think there are. Given that there are two people interested in the pot, either we are chopping often (similar draw to ours) or up against a set as well as was the case.
We are definately behind and like never have fold equity against a better hand.

I think flat call is best. Fold turn if board pairs. They will put us all in if it doens't so our decision is easy and we call.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

this is crazy in a short handed game against two aggressive players.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a little surprised by liddl's holdings. but nice hand, too bad it didn't pan out.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

liddl had the nut straight to go with his two pairs on the flop and he didn't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]perhaps because he wanted ylloretard to or c/r ai?

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a little surprised by liddl's holdings. but nice hand, too bad it didn't pan out.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

liddl had the nut straight to go with his two pairs on the flop and he didn't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]perhaps because he wanted ylloretard to or c/r ai?

[/ QUOTE ]

nice post, thanks for your deep insight

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

It's a silly call by him because he only wants a 2,3,4,5,6, T, or J to fall. And if the J or T fall he likely loses action and if anything else falls he's sandwiched and in basically the worst situation possible.

Re: Neat flop spot kinda deep 5k PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this advice.
The issue is whether enough of our outs are dead to justify folding. I don't think there are. Given that there are two people interested in the pot, either we are chopping often (similar draw to ours) or up against a set as well as was the case.
We are definately behind and like never have fold equity against a better hand.

I think flat call is best. Fold turn if board pairs. They will put us all in if it doens't so our decision is easy and we call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you coming up with this ridiculously tight hand range? This is a 4-handed game. OP decided to check because he thought one of the players would be betting the vast majority of the time, regardless of their hands. Obviously, if he thought that they'd be checking anything but a set or a straight, he would have just bet out on the flop for the size of the pot.

We could easily be up against someone taking a stab with a one pair hand or complete air and someone calling with two pair or a naked KQ. There are tons of hands that we're beating right now or have more than 12 outs against. Check/calling with a high wrap and an overpair is absolutely terrible here. If you play that nitty, your opponents will be able to read you like a book, and you'll get completely run over in an aggressive game.