200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

Trying to apoligize in content-post form for the clutter.

Note the small sidepot. The fact that DB will see my hand if he folds has some effect IMO.

Still not sure how I feel about this one.

Seat 3: El mujeriego ($799)
Seat 5: David Benyamine ($87 260)
Seat 6: Hero ($67 083)
David Benyamine posts the small blind of $200
Hero posts the big blind of $400
The button is in seat #3

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
El mujeriego raises to $799, and is all in
David Benyamine raises to $2,000
Hero calls $1,600

Flop:[8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
David Benyamine bets $3,600
Hero calls $3,600

Turn:[ 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
David Benyamine bets $8,000
Hero calls $8,000

River:[ 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
David Benyamine bets $14,000
Hero raises to $53,483, and is all in

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

Initially i thought "if u think he folds QQ-AA I like it". I mean his line is consistent with all of the above, but how often do u really think he is in the same line of thinking as u? (i.e has worse than a10 but wants to represent overpairs in order to take down the side pot) I mean it seems like u made this decision assuming that some % of the time he is already behind your A10 here, but your utilizing your push as sort of a protection/bluff against hands that are better but will fold. Correct me if im wrong. But, I dunno, i only think this makes sense if he really can have worse than you some significant % of the time. Otherwise depending on your guys' history (this seems like it would come into play a lot too) I think he might often pick up on what your doing and call down with JJ-AA.


edited to mention - to me it doesn't seem like DB will be betting worse here all that often, after the flop, in order to take it down.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

From what Ive seen of Benyamines play I hate this move as a bluff. I like a river call though.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

I dont get this.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
From what Ive seen of Benyamines play I hate this move as a bluff. I like a river call though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer a call to a fold.

I don't think he has a flush or better here almost ever. I think he has a bluff like 20%, a worse or equal T like 40%, 888+ like 8%, and JJ+ the rest.

I don't think that I could have a missed draw the way the action went, adn although DB is cally, he can put people on hands based on their line.

I also thought that him knowing he would see my cards would make him fold a little more because of the curiousity factor.

I'm still not convinced I made the right play, just telling my side of the story.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

"I also thought that him knowing he would see my cards would make him fold a little more because of the curiousity factor."

This def works on me, id fold JJ+. the notion of bluffing with a made hand (with SDV) is very reluctant to me.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

Do you have an estimate of the % he calls you with a weaker T ? ( may be 0% ? )

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

If villain is "cally" why are we trying to push him off a very likely made hand? Why would you value shove when river bet is big from villain and he is representing better than pair of tens.

Not to mention "El mujeriego raises to $799, and is all in", if villain is bluffing on flop (very unlikely as showdown is already guranteed and pot is small so no bets go in unless its for value), he dosnt bluff again on the turn unless hes sure hero is on draw as hero will never float here. I think the chance that he is bluffing increases as the pot gets bigger but he got to that stage by betting when he most likely was not bluffing (on the flop).

After all of this hero shoves when flush hits; this wouldnt make sense unless hero has actually hit the flush so hero has deffinately turned this into a bluff. Hero is never really bluffing in this spot, so heroes kind of used villains strength as a pivot to show even more strength on his part. (Also using a sort of PLO technique as hero holds the card blocking nut flush, but villain never folds a flush here i guess)

Why did you decide to turn TPTK into a bluff anyway. If you called the flop and turn then it seems obvious your not calling to bluff on river. But then you bluff shove on river?!!? If your thinking of bluffing him off why not on the turn instead? when did you decide to discard TPTK and respresent the flush draw instead?

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that I could have a missed draw the way the action went

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, do you call flop with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]/Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

If so, on the turn, you could call with the above two hands, T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], flopped OESD (maybe fold OESD like half the time on the turn). With that range you've got like ~25 diff river cards to value bet/bluff (any [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],Q,J,T,9,7,6,)

There's a lot of math I'm too lazy to do here (bluffing frequencies for each riv card) but given that Ben is willing to lead a 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] river is good. I'd guess calling with this range on the turn is +EV. If it isn't you could add in a smidgen of 8x turn call if that's not already what you are doing and surely it'd be +EV ?

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
From what Ive seen of Benyamines play I hate this move as a bluff. I like a river call though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing. I probably like this more as really thin value than as a bluff.

edit: I don't even like it as a value shove that much. But I don't think benyamine will fold worse that often.

Maybe it's a two way [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

This is about as pretty as that 10d7d preflop 3bet and river shove against Ram.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

The river shove as a bluff / to fold out any split pot possibilites depends on a bunch of things. What level do you think he's on and does he think you're on? I mean it's the classic weak player slowplay of a hand like a house the way you've played it, but although he will realise this, it may only serve to convince him that you have it, as he may think that you want him to believe you have a weak hand by taking the "if any weak player took this line he would have a monster almost every time" approach. Of course, he could be one level up, and realise all this, and then call because he believes that what I've just said is your thought process and so you could make him fold a lot of better hands than yours. This would mean that pushing would be worthwhile because in your opinion he has to feel you're so strong that the extra $$ risked is worthwhile in return for the much larger % of the time that you win the pot. So this depends on the levels of thought, and obviously nobody can answer this question better than you.

However, putting aside what I feel is the most important factor in your decision (what I discussed above), I don't really see the value in pushing because...

...from his perspective, when he bets the river there are three possibilities:

1. He is bluffing -- obviously the call is better if you think he's more than likely bluffing, as he will only call you the rare times that your take on the situation is wrong.

2. He is betting a monster -- bluffing is obviously wrong.

3. He is betting what he thinks is the best hand, but it's a hand that he will fold to an all-in raise -- the profitability of your play hinges on what % of the time you think he has this type of hand.

The % of the time he bets the $14,000 that he bet with this type of hand is, in my opinion, not large enough to merit the push.

Reasons for this:

1. How often you are capable of bluffing in this spot to his bet. The less he thinks you will bluff in this spot then the more likely it is he is making a thin valuebet.

2. How often you will pay off the river with a hand that JJ+ has beat. I doubt it's that often, given the line of call-call on the flop/turn.

3. How often he thinks you will bluff the river if checked to (not very often I would imagine, given your line).

4. Also, given the size of the pot, I would have thought something like $18-$19k is more common with a JJ+ type hand, though I wouldn't assign this too much importance.

In fact, I could keep on listing factors that make the decision such an interesting and close one. For metagame, this is probably great, especially because Benyamine will get rattled by your play REGARDLESS of whether he was bluffing or not.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

god this is a horrible value shove... it's a bluff, obviously, wtf

i dont rail these games but ill chime in with the fact that its more likely you have a boat or a hand like you do, that realizes it might not be good, than a flush... but the side pot thing is kind of interesting

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

JMan,

The first thing I thought of was Strasser's comment (in a thread about playing Ivey HU) about reducing the polarity of his big river bets. I think this is a great metagame play, assuming you play Benyamine enough. Short-term only, I like a call better.

-fink

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

o so stnd

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

I have no idea what's going on postflop. Is preflop standard for you? I'd 3-bet.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

J,

How does his river half-pot influence the range you put him on?

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what's going on postflop. Is preflop standard for you? I'd 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first thing I thought also. DB can profitable isolate the short stack with any two cards, so especially with a hand like ATo that doesn't play great post-flop for 150 BB's, I'm inclined to make it like 7K pre-flop and try to freeroll against the short stack.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

Disagree. I'd rather call, with position, closing the action. Who says AT doesnt play well postflop? It's not the cards that play postflop, it's the people. I think playing AT here is definitely profitable, assuming JMan is better than DB. And if he isn't, why would he be in this game in the first place?

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what's going on postflop. Is preflop standard for you? I'd 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first thing I thought also. DB can profitable isolate the short stack with any two cards, so especially with a hand like ATo that doesn't play great post-flop for 150 BB's, I'm inclined to make it like 7K pre-flop and try to freeroll against the short stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if benyamine is expecting this, and 4bets you very very light? that would be an extremely likely scenario, given:

a) how aggro benyamine is
b)it's obvious you want to isolate
c) now not only freerolling but free dead money to boot

i prefer a call with position given this likely possibility, imo.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what's going on postflop. Is preflop standard for you? I'd 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first thing I thought also. DB can profitable isolate the short stack with any two cards, so especially with a hand like ATo that doesn't play great post-flop for 150 BB's, I'm inclined to make it like 7K pre-flop and try to freeroll against the short stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if benyamine is expecting this, and 4bets you very very light? that would be an extremely likely scenario, given:

a) how aggro benyamine is
b)it's obvious you want to isolate
c) now not only freerolling but free dead money to boot

i prefer a call with position given this likely possibility, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

5-bet?

You're not supposed to advertise in your location.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

he raises pf tighter than he should here if anything... and most people think you can raise looser than you can (any 2 etc)

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

I think this is one of those situations where he folds weaker hands and calls with better hands. I cant figure out whether this is a bluff or a value bet.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

if he folds all weakers T, it is simply bad

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of those situations where he folds weaker hands and calls with better hands. I cant figure out whether this is a bluff or a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think jman can either, hence the post

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

Sexy. like the winner of a drag show.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of those situations where he folds weaker hands and calls with better hands. I cant figure out whether this is a bluff or a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think jman can either, hence the post

[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty sure he does know what it is, but just doesn't know if it's better than calling or not....

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I also thought that him knowing he would see my cards would make him fold a little more because of the curiousity factor."

This def works on me, id fold JJ+. the notion of bluffing with a made hand (with SDV) is very reluctant to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
seconded

big problem here tho is just bc nezzar/me would (POSSIBLY) fold JJ, the absolute value of hands (QQ less likely, KK even more less liekly, AA NEVAH!) means there is a small gray area of hands that POSSIBLY fold..

really id call this river, although the bluff sure is interesting.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
he raises pf tighter than he should here if anything... and most people think you can raise looser than you can (any 2 etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

ABSOLUTELY, Benyamines range is much tighter preflop than it should be here. That combined with the postflop action makes me think you are usually beat... excluding the possibility of a push, I'm not sure if calling is higher EV than folding. I would probably call though. No comment on the push.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

Isn't Benyamine a huge calling station?

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

[ QUOTE ]
J,

How does his river half-pot influence the range you put him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

It influences it a lot.

He very rarely makes a smaller bet with nuts/near nuts.

When he bets like this, I think that JT+, JJ+ or <22 make up 95% of his range.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

give the results please this hand is making my head spin

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

For the record, I'm definitely not doing this for value. I could possibly see a worse hand calling, but I hope they wouldn't. That would make it a terrible bluff.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

I think this is pretty sexy with the backdoor flush draw hitting.

It's obviously a bluff, but I think of it as a combo raise. Of his bluff catchers, most of them beat us, but some of them we beat. So when he makes a hero call we will win sometimes, and he also will fold better hands sometimes too.

Benyamine is a bit of a station though from what I've heard/seen, so he probably isn't the most ideal opponent to try this against, but I like it overall though.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

So your range is ahead of his range ... lotsa G dollars here for you

nice article btw

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

It's very important that you keep the option of bluffing with a made hand, simply because there are spots where you obviously cannot have a draw, so if you don't bluff made hands you're not bluffing at all.

I like the push here, specifically to get out JJ or similar. I think even David B is not paying off worse.

RESULTS
 

He folded very quickly, which makes me pretty sure I had the best hand anyways. Still not sure how I feel about my play. I think I like it, but it's obviously very thin and high variance.

Re: RESULTS
 

M,

"It's very important that you keep the option of bluffing with a made hand, simply because there are spots where you obviously cannot have a draw, so if you don't bluff made hands you're not bluffing at all."

Agreed.

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

does my post suck or something?

do people still think Jman should be folding draws on the turn?

Re: 200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove
 

You high stakes people are nuts haha