(NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I like playing heads up tournaments and so far I've been fairly succesful at it. But here's the thing: no matter how good you get at them you can't break 100 ROI(less counting fees) whereas in other sit'n'gos a good player can surpass that by a fair amount. What are your guys' thoughts on the profitability of HUTRNs. Are we just trading profit for the lower variance and fun of HU, or am I missing something?

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I can play 7.5 matches per hour single tabling and with a 15% ROI can make a killer hourly on a short roll, thus the appeal.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I'd like to know what kind of games you play where you expect to make 100% ROI

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

that's just the mathematical limit with no fees. Of course nobody actually makes that. But compared to the 130+ ROI that some people achieve in other sit'n'gos, HU is limited in it's potential. Although the speed of the games makes them makes them better I guess

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

You be talking about 45 man SNG's or some [censored], we make way more $ than them.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

This is pretty interesting since I have just started playing HU SnGs...After 121 $33+1.5s at Full Tilt I have a ROI at 11%.

I know that samplesize probably is way to small but I would really like to know what's sustainable...

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty interesting since I have just started playing HU SnGs...After 121 $33+1.5s at Full Tilt I have a ROI at 11%.

I know that samplesize probably is way to small but I would really like to know what's sustainable...

[/ QUOTE ]
Ive played about 250 33s at 17% ROI although thats not conclusive by any means. Higher is definitely possible I did not play my A game throughout.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I did some calculations because I have become interested in playing heads up tournaments. I realized that there must be a direct correlation between winning the tournament and your ROI.

While 250 is not a very high sample size... you have sustained a 17% ROI which is pretty good. Am I correct in saying that you have won approximately 61% of the tournaments you have boughten into?

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

Couldnt tell you, right now I have 12.89% ROI winning 59.01% of my matches but I dont really play 33s anymore.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

[ QUOTE ]
Couldnt tell you, right now I have 12.89% ROI winning 59.01% of my matches but I dont really play 33s anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that u play the 55s now?

Sorry for OT but are the 55s much tougher than the 33s?

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I dunno its hard for me to say, Ive run really bad at the 55s so I dont want to give a skewed opinion. 55 players definitely dont put their money in with dominated hands as often as 33 players though.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I went into excel and made a list of winnin % from 1 to 100 based on 1000 tournaments. I put an ROI box next to each winning % with the ROI formula (profit / games played / buyin per tourney)

I learned that in HU tournaments, there is a direct relationship between your winning % and your ROI. This is of course assuming that you are paying a fee that is equvilant of 2.5% of the buy in.

This should hold true for all levels of buy ins in HU tournaments. Am I correct in saying this?

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

Far more important than ROI is winrate. If you have a 50% ROI in a 45 player Sng and a 10% ROI in HU, you making way more in HU because you've played about 8 matches in the time it's taken you to play one 45 SnG

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

Turbo's dont have 2.5% rake.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I am aware that ROI is far more important than win rate, but in HU tournaments these two numbers go hand in hand. If you win 50% of your HU tournamens, your ROI is going to be about -4% (cost of the rake).

If your win rate is 60% your ROI is going to be about 15.20%.

*(Note - these numbers only have a relationship when talking about HU tournaments.)

When I said that there was a 2.5% fee, I was referring to HU tournaments, NOT cash games.

Poker Stars HU turbo tournaments:
6 + .25 in rake - .25 / 12 (prize pool) = 2.0833%
11 + .50 in rake - .50 / 22 (prize pool) = 2.2727%
22 + 1 in rake - 1 / 44 (prize pool) = 2.2727%
220 + 10 in rake - 10 / 440 (prize pool) = 2.2727%

- From these numbers you can see there is a fee of about 2.25% of the prize pool for the turbo head's up tournaments on Poker Stats. (I am not aware what the fee is on other websites, however if someone would like to post this information that would be greatly appreciated.)

* Important to note that the turbo HU tournaments have a slightly lower fee than the regular speed tournaments.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

I think the way to look at it is to look at your buyin versus your rake.

And you mixed up your first sentence.

I don't understand what this thread is trying to accomplish after the first few posts.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

Yes I apologize for the mistakes and for the thread getting a bit off topic.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

Ok I have a hypohetical question I have been pondering a while which I wonder if anyone is able to answer.

Say you have a MTT , HU SNG and a NL cash player who are in the top 5% of their buy-in level. I know we can't equate the buy-in of the cash game player withe tourney players but lets just say it's similar.

Now we make these player play an infinite number of games. Who is winning more $ on an hourly basis and roughly how much more than the others?

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

We'd need some info like how long the average game is lasting for these players. Also what ROI you have to have to be in the top 5% of all players at each level. Maybe Nicho's database could help us solve 1/3 of this particular problem.

Aside from that, all that this would take is an equation. Plug in the numbers for single tabling and see what happens.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

Without doing calculations, I can tell you what I've read and have heard.

The top 5% of NL cash players supposedly make a lot more than the top 5% of MTT players.

This is what I've read on some different forums.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

If there were 100k 9 man SNGs around for the richest players in the world I'm sure things would be different.

Of course if you have a huge sum of money the biggest games are going to be cash games.

But if you want to compare different levels of MTT, HUSNG and 9-45 man SNG, I think the results would be less obvious and actually valuable. It could help you move up through different games and give you a better idea of how much variance and what kind of success you should have based on previous levels or games you've played. You can kind of get ideas about it now, but I don't think there's any precise data out there that is widely available.

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

yeh it's a tricky one. I really enjoy HU SnG's but there's nothing like the adrenaline thrill of making a final table of an MTT where you've got a shot at biiiig money. Unfortunately all that's happened in my MTT career is that I've just missed out on the big payouts a frustrating amount of times and my HU profit gets siphoned into mtt buy-ins, with my overall $ staying around even.

I've begun to wonder if I'm just wasting my time with MTT's and should concentrate on HU. Anyone had similar experiences?

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

What level HUSNG and MTT do you play? How many of each have you played roughly? Do you have ROIs for each of these you can accurately give?

If you're a better HU player and you're content playing those for awhile there's no reason not to play them. Otherwise, move down a level in MTT if you can, those 180 man SNGs aren't the hardest MTT type games in the world...

Re: (NLTRN) heads up roi
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can play 7.5 matches per hour single tabling and with a 15% ROI can make a killer hourly on a short roll, thus the appeal.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this standard (7.5 matches per hour, single tabling)?
at what level and at what site?
that works out to 8 minutes a pop. certainly some are over in 1 minute, but it seems like a ton more last a lot longer than 8 minutes.