Why do we hate donkeys?
 

Why is it that I get soooo angry while playing someone that hasn't a clue! I should actually be happy while playing a donk because in the long run that is who I get the money from. Yet everytime they suck out after putting their money in way behind it really {censored} pisses me off.

Why is that?

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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Why is that?

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Because you have no real grasp of what poker is really all about?

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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Why is that?

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Because you have no real grasp of what poker is really all about?

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Thanks for the quality post!

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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Thanks for the quality post!

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Just following your lead. Ever hear of the 'search' function? Had you used it, you would have already answered your own question.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

In hold'em, AA is going to win HU about 4/5 times. Would you rather turn your hand face up as you bet and have everyone fold, or would you rather have a caller getting the worst of it, recognizing that in the long-term the caller will win 1/5 times?

You look down at AA: do you think you've won the hand?

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

It's not the quality of their play, it is the quantity at the table. A few poor players is a great game, most of the table makes for a less than optimal situation.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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It's not the quality of their play, it is the quantity at the table. A few poor players is a great game, most of the table makes for a less than optimal situation.

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I love playing 6max NL (online) with a table full of donkeys. I can imagine how full ring (live) could be frustrating.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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It's not the quality of their play, it is the quantity at the table. A few poor players is a great game, most of the table makes for a less than optimal situation.

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Are you saying you want less donkeys on your table? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

If your results get worse if a lot of donkeys sit on your table than your not adapting properly.

If you don't love to have donkeys on your table (assuming your there to win money) than you have a fundemental misunderstanding of the game. Donkeys make mistakes, if they make mistakes and you learn how to abuse those mistake you will make money and they will lose money in the long run. So having donkeys on your table brings in the big bucks, so saying you hate donkeys is quite faulty logic.

I must say they can be quite annoying though. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

Because you're junk is too far on the table and you take it too personal when you lose. When you take it personal, it's your ego talking. Here's a hint: Nobody cares about your ego.

It's on thing to hate lady luck and all, fine, but another to hate the players just because they're playing the game the way they like to.

Entitlement sucks.

And yes, as zuluking mentioned, alot of times these thoughts are from people who really haven't bought in on where the money comes from in these games(they say they know, but they sure don't act like it) and overestmate any edge they may have.

b

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the quality of their play, it is the quantity at the table. A few poor players is a great game, most of the table makes for a less than optimal situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't like maximum value?

b

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

we tend to focus on the times we lose the hand then the other times we win it which is natural, you must just realize that these guys are where the dead money comes from

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

Your question should be rephrased, "Why do I hate donkeys?"

Might it have something to do with not understanding their (lack of) game and because of this, you perceive their play as being unpredictable? The result is that you get frustrated when your bets/raises get no respect and then the donkeys get lucky with a weak hand. This, in turn, affects your ego, especially if it happens enough in a short timespan. You wind up angry because a few donkeys made you look bad at the poker table where you were so convinced (perhaps rightfully so, even) that you are a superior player.

Hint...divorce your ego from your poker game and stop hating donkeys. Do this and soon you will realize that poker needs more donkeys. Donkeys are to poker what gasoline is to automobiles.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

First off, I will say that I DO know where the money comes from. However, in all honesty and maybe this is where the ego comes in, I get way more satisfaction from having maybe 2 donks at the table but the rest better players. I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I will say that I DO know where the money comes from. However, in all honesty and maybe this is where the ego comes in, I get way more satisfaction from having maybe 2 donks at the table but the rest better players. I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players.

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its ego taking over the table. I suggest you start taking notes when u see a donkey make stupid plays and be happy about it. I used to get personal when I get called down with 3rd pair on a perfect bluff but then I realized that I was the donkey for bluffing someone who might call down aith any piece. Remember what aba said, poker is 90% playing your good hands ei value betting etcetc and about 5/10% bluffing by goin with your reads.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

"I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players."

So here you admit that winning a hand of poker, to you, is more than just winning the money in the pot. For you there is an element of pride attached to each hand you play. You are certainly not alone here. Lots of players feel this way about their game.

Furthermore, this would explain why you "hate" donkeys. You don't think much of playing against them. You obviously think they are easy to beat and do not derive much (if any) satisfaction in beating them; and you get upset if they get lucky and draw out on you.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

I try not to hate anyone at the table, although it's inevitable. I'm usually not hating the donkeys, though. It's usually everyone else that I cant stand.

1) Floor people who think they are above everybody
2) Poor losers, table coaches, scowling "go for a walkers"
3) Arrogant players who respect noone "You're all...blah"
4) Tight trapping no-action nut-peddling players "You want to see my nuts?"
5) People who speak in angry tones to other players "You c/r me again and I'm gonna come after you."
6) People so angry when you ask to borrow their pen they refuse because you just beat them in a hand.

With so many other disagreeable pricks, why hate the donkeys?

-J

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

From reading people think deeper than I do, I read maximum value plummets at poor player number six.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that I get soooo angry while playing someone that hasn't a clue! I should actually be happy while playing a donk because in the long run that is who I get the money from. Yet everytime they suck out after putting their money in way behind it really {censored} pisses me off.

Why is that?

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I don't know and don't care. But please keep posting because I love that avatar! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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Why is that?

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Because you have no real grasp of what poker is really all about?

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Thanks for the quality post!

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his post is the best answer in the thread... learn to understand the game more, and you probably wont get as angry...thats what worked for me.


oh, and instead of getting pissed off, try to figure out WHY this opponent made this play, or why he thought his hand was good. then exploit that weakness and own him.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players.

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If you find it easier to beat better players than bad ones, you have a leak you need to work on, namely exploiting bad players. You're missing out on lots of easy money.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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First off, I will say that I DO know where the money comes from. However, in all honesty and maybe this is where the ego comes in, I get way more satisfaction from having maybe 2 donks at the table but the rest better players. I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players.

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Its never easier to beat a "better" play. It's definitional: a better player is one that is more difficult to beat. Usually this attitude comes from someone who goes to far with an unimproved hand after the "donkey" hits two pair. Personally, I'm not really in this for personal satisfaction; I'd join Greenpeace for that. The worse the players surrounding me the better. When you start suggesting that you would do better against better players something is wrong with your anaylsis.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

Hard to say. I like bad players, but not total donkeys. I seriously CANNOT stand a game that is slowed down by players who have no idea what they are doing. "So how much to me? Yeah, I put in the 50, you made it 475? So thats how much more to me. Oh, its my turn? Oh, its my turn? Oh, its my turn. I fold, oh, its free? Ok. "

This is especially annoying when you're losing.

At the same time, I love how they always make losing calls.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

I love tables full of droolers.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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Its never easier to beat a "better" play. It's definitional: a better player is one that is more difficult to beat.

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Beat: I had to look up definitional to believe it's an actual word.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

How to overcome your hate of donkeys...
Imagine your avatar is two donkeys bumping into each other..

Now you must want to be stuck inbewteen the two donkeys as I do!
Definitely one of my top 10 favourites for avatars.
It made me laugh!

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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From reading people think deeper than I do, I read maximum value plummets at poor player number six.

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Would you mind quoting your source there, Mike? I believe your claim is incorrect, and would always be happy to back that up by sitting at the 10-donkey table rather than the 6-donkeys-and-4-tags table.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

Sure, the old fish schooling problem and I will pm you a private link, as I dig it up from Google. I am out of town, so i don't have anything close by.

Of course sitting tags are not fun and it would nto be an easy game as half the table is seated for donkey oysters. It would be much better to be at a table with five poor players (donkeys), four abc average players and yourself. That is the greatest profit potential generally.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that I get soooo angry while playing someone that hasn't a clue! I should actually be happy while playing a donk because in the long run that is who I get the money from. Yet everytime they suck out after putting their money in way behind it really {censored} pisses me off.

Why is that?

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It is because you probably aren't worried about the long run, you are worried about the short term wins/losses. Time for a reality check, seriously. Need > Greed. Winning players know this, 'bad beats' are random, meaningless... I don't know your'e specific situation, but it sounds like you have some bankroll management issues, maybe you don't, maybe u are just a recreational player without a BR, if so I can see how bad beats can suck, but realize that is part of the 'short term' game, which you play, not the long term.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I will say that I DO know where the money comes from. However, in all honesty and maybe this is where the ego comes in, I get way more satisfaction from having maybe 2 donks at the table but the rest better players. I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me.

If my edge decreases, and I witness that better players have joined the game, I start thinking of an exit.

Last night I clearly had six bad players, two who had a clue, and myself at my table. The game got bad when it became six handed with only one bad player remaining.

When I got up to leave, the bad player left too (as he clearly thought I was worse than he was) causing the game to break.

Bummer for the rest (and for me as well I guess), but it was almost an all-nighter for me (have a regular job too).

However, with more of the "bad" players at the table, you have many people pushing their hands too far (because rivering their two outer worked like 20 minutes ago) and I know that they will call down with anything. Pretty easy to figure out. They haven't realized that I haven't played many pots and my raise "might" mean something. They just call - that's what they do.

I have no desire to be the best in the world. I won't be on television any time soon.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

I think it is because with a good player you know their thought process, and therefore you may be able to manipulate it a little bit whereas a donk, you may see him make the right play 2 times and then he gets totally wacko for the next pot you play against him. The normal bad (or good actually) calling stations are the easy ones.

I won't deny that some of it may be ego and that I have to work on.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

In HOH vol II, Mr. Harrington addresses the topic of "Controlling Pot Odds". One of the basic concepts is to make a call by your opponent incorrect for certain types of hands. I have found that if my opponent makes a play that I have conciously and actively enticed him into, then, I am far less likely to get mad. I'm always very happy for a few seconds after I get a call that I believe is incorrect, so I think it puts me in a better frame of mind, even if I consequently take a bad beat. Also, when I see his hand after he beats me, I get some ego gratification that I did a good job enticing the call. Controlling pot odds requires me to put my opponent on a range of hands, figure his outs and odds, and then calculate my bet. I think by being so immersed in the details, it tends to seperate my emotions from the game, somewhat. And finally, studying HOH vols I-III has seemed to make the game much less emotional for me. I think it's because he takes such an unemotional approach in his writing and analysis.

So anyway, these things have worked for me.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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From reading people think deeper than I do, I read maximum value plummets at poor player number six.

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Would you mind quoting your source there, Mike? I believe your claim is incorrect, and would always be happy to back that up by sitting at the 10-donkey table rather than the 6-donkeys-and-4-tags table.

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Yes mike is clearly wrong in terms of expectation.
What leads to the misconception is that poker equivalent of the sharp ratio can be increased at tables like this.

For example the 10 seated table full of Lagtards is clearly more profitable than table with you and three tight exploitable semi-passive players.
However the latter gives you low variance with a highish expectation, while the table full of lagtards has a higher expectation but a disproportionately higher variance.

Krieger wrote about loose aggressive tables. Of course like most players I wouldn't pass up the oportunity, but if you can't handle or understand the increased variance then I guess you might want to avoid them.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

I feel you may wish to rethink what you are saying. We live in reality. If I own a bank, perhaps I can play at a table of continous reloading bad players who play to the river with any two cards and of course over the long run I will come out on top - but is it worth it?

Ever been on a 30 bb downturn each session over many sessions at a table like this? Wait until it happens and see how decimated your bank roll becomes if you have any left at the end. It is a is a very slow crawl to bank roll recovery, as the world goes on around you.

In the real world, there is a practical limit to our bankroll. There is a point where the bankroll needed to beat these types of players at one level and be able to absorb the ups and downs that go with the long run exceeds reasonable and realistic expectation of profit potential for bankroll in proportion to game size.

Simply put, there is an easier game at another table and perhaps at another level. The risk needs to balance the reward in the (reasonable) short term. A passive $10 - 20 game is much better than a wild five or more raising to the river $4 - 8 game.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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The risk needs to balance the reward in the (reasonable) short term

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Yes hence my reference to the sharpe ratio. It's an investment term but the principle is what you are applying.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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I think it is more satisfying and sometimes easier to beat the better players.

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do you find it less frustrating when a good player sucks out on you?

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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do you find it less frustrating when a good player sucks out on you?

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I usually do.

I think it's an interesting point, but I think that there are 2 reasons why it doesn't bother me as much.

First of all, if a player that I think is good sucks out, then I successfully manipulated them into a situation that was bad for them. This makes me feel better.

Secondly, I can learn something from the nature of this player's mistake and the way he got exploited in the first place.

So, I think that in the case of getting sucked out on by a bad player, you just have to chalk it up and walk away. There is no further value there. But losing to a suck out by a good player can have both emotional and practical value if you are able to extract a reusable lesson from it.

Of course, the flip side is that the money will be harder to recover from the good player's stack.

Just my .02 cents.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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if a player that I think is good sucks out, then I successfully manipulated them into a situation that was bad for them. This makes me feel better.


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mister you're a better man than i.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

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A passive $10 - 20 game is much better than a wild five or more raising to the river $4 - 8 game.

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you are not saying that is bad to have too many donkeys at your table, you're saying its bad to have too many maniacs at your table.

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

Yes, give me the weak tighties any day, or, alternatively, decent hands against the maniacs!

Problem is, of course, we need to take decent hands up against the maniacs wide range.

Also, there are maniacs, and then there are MANIACs. I have a reputation for being the resident maniac at 25 buck buy in pub poker. Simply because i raise when i should, and, when i have less than 12bb, I will shove pf. This leads to many all ins, but the fishies just dont understand (which is a good thing!)

Re: Why do we hate donkeys?
 

The first reply was serious. You if you hate donkeys you don't fully understand poker.