Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

I noticed Alan G's comment in the "new wsop structure" thread that the increase to $20k starting chips may have been partly to discourage "chip substitution".

Anyone want to elaborate of chip cheating schemes at the wsop?

Harrah's has said they are going to have all new chips this year, so I guess that will make it hard for anyone to copy last years chips and enter them into the tournament.

"Chip substitution" wouldn't seem to be a huge advantage unless you got a huge stack in a prelim event and decided to pocket about $15,000 in chips to later use for the ME.

Can anyone comment on these schemes?

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

if they only use certain higher denomination chips for the main event than it would be impossible to substitute them at the end because they would not have been used in any prelim. events.

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.

i think bluff or cardplayer did a story where they tried to at least figure out when the error occured.

you can look up some old threads.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

Forever, in a WSOP event, you got chips equal in value to the price of the buyin. The cheapest events years ago, other than the dealers event and the ladies only event, were $1500 buyin events. In recent years, $1000 buyin open events have been added. Last year, they decided that with a minimum starting blind of 25,25, these $1000 buyin events started you out too short-stacked. So, they gave players 1500 in chips. But, if you do that, somebody can enter a $1000 buyin event, pocket a bunch of chips that cost 67 cents per chips, and add those chips to their stack in a later event, where chips are worth 1 dollar apiece.

They are quite possibly doubling the starting stack in every event this year so they can offer more play in all events without having to change the chip:dollar ratio in any event as compared to other events.

But, all of this is pure guesswork on my part.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

thanks for your thoughts greg.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
if they only use certain higher denomination chips for the main event than it would be impossible to substitute them at the end because they would not have been used in any prelim. events.

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.

i think bluff or cardplayer did a story where they tried to at least figure out when the error occured.

you can look up some old threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was Pokernews, it was an excellent set of 3 articles and explained where the most likely error occured. No cheating, just a mistake by the floor.....

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)


They figured out the source of the error was the final color up


i think bluff or cardplayer did a story where they tried to at least figure out when the error occured.

you can look up some old threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

I was listening in on the teleconference; I might be able to add a bit. What Greg says about the increase in ALL events I can't speak to, as I don't remember it that way, but it seems very logical.

What I do remember --- and this was in response to Susie Isaacs' original question --- is the reason the chip stacks were doubled in the lower events was to provide room for additional play. The way it was explained is that the ratio of the starting blinds to the starting chip stacks will remain the same, but that by doubling the initial chip stacks, they can work in several more incremental blind levels during the middle stages of the smaller events. My interpretation here: This is designed to increase the amount of more complex play and delay the onset of push-'n'-pray poker.

(And not a ton more extra play at that --- I just read through the interesting thread on the structure.)

As for tying it back to the "chip cheating" thing, it'd be hard to. Amy and Tim's series on the overage last year was excellent, and comments that some player had managed to ring in $2.2 million in extra chips were ludicrous. There's no way any player or group of players could pull $2+ million in chips out of play in earlier events without it either being noticed or without the whole scheme being exposed, due to the massive numbers of players that would have to be involved to make it work. It was all but certain to be a math error, as it turned out to be.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

My point was that if you doubled the starting chips in the prelim events, but kept the starting chips at 10k in the main event, chip substitution would be a concern. Since it appears the main event will start with 20k chips, this should NOT be a concern.

Anyone who thinks the "structure" of the $10k NLH event will be better than 2006 due to more starting chips (i.e. 20k) is mistaken. It is clear no attempt was made to improve the quality of the structure of the main event.

There is some modest improvement in the quality of the prelim event structures.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

Article from Pokernews

[ QUOTE ]
Another great step forward comes on the chip front. New chipsets have been ordered so that all events being played will have distinctively different colored chips. There will be a separate set for the Main Event, Mega-Satellites, Super-Satellites, Single Table Satellites, each daily event and the cross-over events playing a day two or day three continuation. This will end the concern that chips from one event were being introduced from lower buy-in events into other more lucrative payout tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

it was due to the color ins as chips increased and the tourney progressed.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

Insert comment from Men The Master gimmick account

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was Poker News that had the 3 part series out on this, but the big news is they finally put the 4th article out within the last couple of weeks. It confirmed their theory on when and how the extra chips got introduced, it was in the color up with 27 players remaining. They also said Kevin Donelly was one of two the players who receieved the chips. IIRC he lost them minutes afterward to AC in a AA v. KK all-in PF showdown. They did not reveal who the other player was, but the Poker News Columnist had apparently heard the name and thought it was suspect because he was so short at the time that it would have been too obvious if he suddenly got a boatload of extra chips.

Sorry I don't have the link for you right now, but do a search and I think you will find it. It was a very interesting read.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

So they say. Notice they are also taking steps to make it more difficult for people to bring in chips from other tournaments.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was Poker News that had the 3 part series out on this, but the big news is they finally put the 4th article out within the last couple of weeks. It confirmed their theory on when and how the extra chips got introduced, it was in the color up with 27 players remaining. They also said Kevin Donelly was one of two the players who receieved the chips. IIRC he lost them minutes afterward to AC in a AA v. KK all-in PF showdown. They did not reveal who the other player was, but the Poker News Columnist had apparently heard the name and thought it was suspect because he was so short at the time that it would have been too obvious if he suddenly got a boatload of extra chips.


[/ QUOTE ]

was it this guy?

http://www.kabala.com/img/michael4.JPG

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
pocket a bunch of chips that cost 67 cents per chips,

[/ QUOTE ]
The cost to the casino is not the issue. It's the value of the chip on the table in relation to the players cost to obtain them. Which is what I think you meant.

The price to the player would be $1000 unless they satellited in. If so, then they could cripple themselves intentionally (pocketing chips) and put them in play when they move at the main event at a lower cost.

If I remember correctly, the gift shop was selling exact duplicates of the actual chips in play.

chip duplicating is difficult and not cheap to do. so i doubt anyone duped the chips illegitimately.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]

If I remember correctly, the gift shop was selling exact duplicates of the actual chips in play.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a joke, right? My sarcasm detector is in the shop.

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

i hear a lot of the poker community dislike Men the master because of concerns (some relevant like a pupil soft playing him at 7 stud in 05 or 06 cant remember but watched) of soft play and chip sheating schemes...he was caught with extra chips in one of his rooms after a fire scare at a tourney..after play had ended for the day.. would love to hear more on this topic

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hear a lot of the poker community dislike Men the master because of concerns (some relevant like a pupil soft playing him at 7 stud in 05 or 06 cant remember but watched) of soft play and chip sheating schemes...he was caught with extra chips in one of his rooms after a fire scare at a tourney..after play had ended for the day.. would love to hear more on this topic

[/ QUOTE ]

There is plenty of dirt on Men The Master across the web.

A bit of nifty googling should give you plenty of bed-time reading on the subject...

Re: Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let\'s hear them.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Forever, in a WSOP event, you got chips equal in value to the price of the buyin. The cheapest events years ago, other than the dealers event and the ladies only event, were $1500 buyin events. In recent years, $1000 buyin open events have been added. Last year, they decided that with a minimum starting blind of 25,25, these $1000 buyin events started you out too short-stacked. So, they gave players 1500 in chips. But, if you do that, somebody can enter a $1000 buyin event, pocket a bunch of chips that cost 67 cents per chips, and add those chips to their stack in a later event, where chips are worth 1 dollar apiece.

They are quite possibly doubling the starting stack in every event this year so they can offer more play in all events without having to change the chip:dollar ratio in any event as compared to other events.

But, all of this is pure guesswork on my part.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I would trust your "guesses" a lot more than most of these guys' "facts"