Japan - WTF?
 

Recently, Japanese PM Shinzo Abe asserted that there was no historical proof that the "comfort women," i.e., the women who served in Japanese military brothels during WWII, were coerced into being there. This has caused a scandal because there is a great deal of proof, including testimony from many of the women and soldiers, and government documents, all of which conclusively demonstrates that tens of thousands of women were kidnapped and serially raped.

Nor is this the first time Japanese officials have done similar things. The former PM regularly visited the Yasukuni shrine, which honors over a thousand war criminals. IIRC, there was also a controversy over the way Japanese textbooks described some of the events of WWII.

My question is why are Japanese officials behaving like this, and why is it tolerated? Aside from being morally repugnant, white-washing Japan's past really darkens the country's reputation amongst its Asian neighbors, particularly China and Korea (its number 2 and 3 trading partners). It seems especially futile when the general truth has been pretty well established by historians. Is this part of a revolt by a younger generation against the guilt of the past? Pure bull-headed chauvinism? Something else entirely?

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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My question is why are Japanese officials behaving like this

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I guess because of guilt, shame, humiliation, machismo, etc..


No Apology To American Indians

American Internment Camps

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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American Internment Camps


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America has apologized for this, and a sitting U.S. president has apologized for this, and reparations have been granted for this. I"m not saying it wasn't an incredibly dark and stupid part of our history, but its not the same as Japan, which is not apologizing for its war crimes.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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No Apology To American Indians

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Abe's stance would be similar to claiming that there was no evidence of coercion in the relocation of the Cherokee to the Oklahoma Territory.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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My question is why are Japanese officials behaving like this, and why is it tolerated?

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For the same reason Americans claim that nuking Hiroshima "saved lives."

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

Japanese children are taught from birth that:

1) Japan is the greatest country on earth.
2) The Japanese people are superior to all other races.
3) Japanese government and rulers are wise and just.

All of the idealogical building blocks of facism are there. The only difference is that in addition to the three above they are also taught that militarism was a mistake. Not so much a mistake because killing the foreign devils is wrong, but LOSING the war was wrong. Japan doesn't engage in wars today because people well understand the high price of war, not because there has been a fundamental shift in their believes about foreigners.

Why all this? Japan is racially homogeneous which is a breading ground for such attitudes. The country was long cut of from foreigners and it is deeply rooted in culture and tradition.

Why do politicians promote it?

1) Honestly, most genuinely believe it, given the way they are raised and the cultural background.

2) It's a big seller. If you haven't noticed our own politicians score votes of flag waiving and race bating.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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No Apology To American Indians

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No one really denies what happened though. A better U.S. example would be the War Between the States. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

Who effing cares? Bad things happen in wars. Why dig up the past? Do you really think acknowledging "war crimes" will heal anyone?

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Who effing cares? Bad things happen in wars. Why dig up the past? Do you really think acknowledging "war crimes" will heal anyone?

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This is sort of my point, though. If the gov't of Japan was just refusing to engage in any discussion of the past, that would be sensible, if nothing else. But deliberately doing pointless and inflammatory things when it's such a sensitive topic in the region seems crazy.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

I'm more concerned with the fact that people who pursued a policy of ethnic cleansing, like Andrew Jackson, have their faces on our money.

Basically, this is Japan's answer the Bush Sr.'s dictum "My country. Right or wrong"

Nationalism sucks, and it sucks hard. The only way an awful creation like corporatist states can exist is through stupifying their populations into worshipping their "glorious heritage". Basically, we are all paying a high price for an item we'd be better off without.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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My question is why are Japanese officials behaving like this, and why is it tolerated? Aside from being morally repugnant, white-washing Japan's past really darkens the country's reputation amongst its Asian neighbors, particularly China and Korea (its number 2 and 3 trading partners). It seems especially futile when the general truth has been pretty well established by historians. Is this part of a revolt by a younger generation against the guilt of the past? Pure bull-headed chauvinism? Something else entirely?

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How many living Japanese were involved in war crimes?
How long are modern Japanese suppose to feel guilty for acts they never committed.....

They guilt thing gets old after a while..... With China acting like the next evil empire I'm glad the Japanses are growing some balls again. If war breaks out with China AGAIN.....we will need a strong Japan on our side.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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My question is why are Japanese officials behaving like this, and why is it tolerated? Aside from being morally repugnant, white-washing Japan's past really darkens the country's reputation amongst its Asian neighbors, particularly China and Korea (its number 2 and 3 trading partners). It seems especially futile when the general truth has been pretty well established by historians. Is this part of a revolt by a younger generation against the guilt of the past? Pure bull-headed chauvinism? Something else entirely?

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How many living Japanese were involved in war crimes?
How long are modern Japanese suppose to feel guilty for acts they never committed.....

They guilt thing gets old after a while..... With China acting like the next evil empire I'm glad the Japanses are growing some balls again. If war breaks out with China AGAIN.....we will need a strong Japan on our side.

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By your sparkling logic in a few decades Germany can deny the Holocaust because no one who was involved is among the living....nice.

Modern Japanese shouldnt feel guilty but they should learn about it as fact. Just as we as Americans learn about our mistakes (unless your teachers sucked or you went to school generations ago) such as slavery. Denying it all together is ignorant and represents a moral failure.

I am a US citizen. I dont think there are any US citizens alive who participated in the "Trail of Tears". I do not feel personally guilty that it happened nor should I as I wasnt alive or involved.... But I wont DENY it as a regretable fact and part of my nation's history.

I agree with your comments as to the historical impact of a strong China v. a weak Japan or vice versa. I dont think that any strength is given from denying something terrible that happened during a war (even if it was a war over a half century old). Denying war crimes has nothing to do with Japan "growing some balls again"

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many living Japanese were involved in war crimes?
How long are modern Japanese suppose to feel guilty for acts they never committed.....

They guilt thing gets old after a while..... With China acting like the next evil empire I'm glad the Japanses are growing some balls again. If war breaks out with China AGAIN.....we will need a strong Japan on our side.

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It is not a matter of guilt. You are missing yhe point, it is a matter of acknowledging the facts, so as not to be forced to relive history.

By the way there are still many women of comfort survivors. Yeah, it is old history!

Wait, Japan is needed to support the USA own economic interests. Ah well, I presume as usual, then Japan need not concerns themselves with the facts then. How convenient!

Next down, History
 

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Why are Japanese officials behaving like this, and why is it tolerated?

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How many living Japanese were involved in war crimes?
How long are modern Japanese suppose to feel guilty for acts they never committed?

With China acting like the next evil empire I'm glad the Japanese are growing some balls again. If war breaks out with China AGAIN.....we will need a strong Japan on our side.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree absolutely.

Taking it one step further, how many Nazi camp survivors still living? And how many Nazis ? (That many?? Damn.)

Anyway, when they all die, I'm looking forward to the Germans re-writing History so as to absolve their nation of all guilt. About time the Germans grow some balls again!

If war breaks out with uppity Russia, America will need a strong Germany.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

This isn't 100% true but it's close enough that I can't take too much exception to it.
Japan is scary. It's turning into more and more of a neo-fascist state these days. On the outside you see a supposedly high level of personal freedom, high standard of living, "free" elections, and overall peaceful position on world affairs. Behind the kuromaku is massive political corruption, a media controlled by right-wing militarist yakuza elements that want to bring back the emperor, an ever-widening income gap that has led to a new class of working poor and a government looking to punish these people with regressive consumption taxes, widespread collusion among businesses to keep prices artificially high and pay low, the list goes on and on. Japan is just as bad as any communist country ever was, the only difference is that they are more successful at it because they are less transparent, making things look democratic instead.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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This isn't 100% true but it's close enough that I can't take too much exception to it.
Japan is scary. It's turning into more and more of a neo-fascist state these days. On the outside you see a supposedly high level of personal freedom, high standard of living, "free" elections, and overall peaceful position on world affairs. Behind the kuromaku is massive political corruption, a media controlled by right-wing militarist yakuza elements that want to bring back the emperor, an ever-widening income gap that has led to a new class of working poor and a government looking to punish these people with regressive consumption taxes, widespread collusion among businesses to keep prices artificially high and pay low, the list goes on and on. Japan is just as bad as any communist country ever was, the only difference is that they are more successful at it because they are less transparent, making things look democratic instead.


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Hi Haji,

You write well. Please post more.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

Quote:


Who effing cares? Bad things happen in wars. Why dig up the past? Do you really think acknowledging "war crimes" will heal anyone?


I'm not sure you understand the extent to which these things went on. The Japanese were brutal and evil, far beyond what they needed to be, and most of the younger Japanese generation don't know. Some of these people are around today as fathers, grandfathers, teachers, businessmen.

There was shock and surprise in the country some years back when "Blood Oath" was shown, a realistic and less than graphic depiction of Japanese atrocities during the war. Many young people could not believe their own country did such a thing, because they are taught a different version of history in their schools and museums. Many believe America was largely to blame for the war, and that the atomic bomb was the reason the US won. These people need to be violently disabused of this notion so they see the sickness that exists in their own society, their racism and their rituals.

American leaders made an unforgivable mistake not requiring a guilt clause in the surrender treaty. They had close to absolute power over the Japanese and should have crushed them when they had the chance.

Anyway, I suggest you read the articles below. The Japanese were as evil as the Nazis and committed atrocities on the same scale - genocide in the millions, brutal human experiments, rape camps..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731


******Edit:/Jman220Post Edited by Jman220. Calling an entire race "evil" or "the enemy" will not be tolerated. Warning Issued.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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LOL @ the guy who mentioned the Japanese internment. These were fanatical, loyal members of an enemy race who held regular emperor worshipping ceremonies and had little integration with US culture. They were stationed next to important US bases and could have been a threat. The world wasn't racially integrated like it is today. And these people were treated very humanely.

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LOL @ you and your view of Japanese internment

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

I don't wish to derail this thread with that debate. Suffice to say comparing that with Japanese actions is silly. Feel free to start a new thread.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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If war breaks out with China AGAIN.....we will need a strong Japan on our side.

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Uhm... the last time we were involved in a war with China, we are ALLIES against the Japanese...

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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1) Japan is the greatest country on earth.
2) The Japanese people are superior to all other races.
3) Japanese government and rulers are wise and just.

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This isn't true at all.

Percentage wise, more white Americans think like 1) & 2) (change the "Japan" to "the United States" and change "Japanese" to "American") than Japanese people, IMO.

I went to Japanese school, and none of the teachers ever said any of the above. Also, I know quite a few Japanese people, but I never met anyone who thinks that Japan is the greatest country on earth, Japanese people are superior than other races, or Japanese government and rulers are wise and just.

I do agree that a lot of Japanese think that Japan is the greatest place to live for them because of the easy access to the food that they like, the language that they understand, the 4 seasons that they love, and so on, but my guess is that that's not what you're talking about.

Where did you get this idea?

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Uhm... the last time we were involved in a war with China, we are ALLIES against the Japanese...

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Don't tell the Marines. link

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Uhm... the last time we were involved in a war with China, we are ALLIES against the Japanese...

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Don't tell the Marines. link

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Don't tell, don't ask! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just reminded me how it is possible to turn a lost battle in a valiant effort. Not meaning any disrespects to the troops ny any means, it is your politicians I hold responsible in the same way it was in Vietnam. In the Chosin battle, it was at least a UN mission, albeit lead by, and definitely also orchestrated by, the US.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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1) Japan is the greatest country on earth.
2) The Japanese people are superior to all other races.
3) Japanese government and rulers are wise and just.

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This isn't true at all.

Percentage wise, more white Americans think like 1) & 2) (change the "Japan" to "the United States" and change "Japanese" to "American") than Japanese people, IMO.

I went to Japanese school, and none of the teachers ever said any of the above. Also, I know quite a few Japanese people, but I never met anyone who thinks that Japan is the greatest country on earth, Japanese people are superior than other races, or Japanese government and rulers are wise and just.

I do agree that a lot of Japanese think that Japan is the greatest place to live for them because of the easy access to the food that they like, the language that they understand, the 4 seasons that they love, and so on, but my guess is that that's not what you're talking about.

Where did you get this idea?

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Was about to say much the same, though i couldnt contradict that Japan felt this way, Americans certainly do.

Plus the fact that America hasnt realised the enlightened decision that war is unnecessary.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Plus the fact that America hasnt realised the enlightened decision that war is unnecessary.


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At least the administration in America hasn't. I fervently hope that, like in my country (we are allies), as well as in many other countries, the majority have realized that. Go bro! The majority of the world supports you, and need you!

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

Just because the majority of the world believes war in general is justifiable and necessary, doesnt make it right.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Just because the majority of the world believes war in general is justifiable and necessary, doesnt make it right.


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That is, sort of, what I meant... The majority of the world is moving to a position that opposes unwarranted or whimsical decisions, and, surely, does not support those made solely on self/particular/narrowly national interests.

As I said before, in other ways, I feel that the US has sqandered all, and more than, the international goodwill it generated during WWII, since then.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

Has the Japanese society ever admitted guilt? I'm curious, I am left with the impression that they haven't been through the process that has been in i.e. Germany, but really don't know.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Just because the majority of the world believes war in general is justifiable and necessary, doesnt make it right.


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That is, sort of, what I meant... The majority of the world is moving to a position that opposes unwarranted or whimsical decisions, and, surely, does not support those made solely on self/particular/narrowly national interests.

As I said before, in other ways, I feel that the US has sqandered all, and more than, the international goodwill it generated during WWII, since then.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Too much time in BBV - i thought it was straight up sarcasm.

NP dude.

Fwiw they have squandered WW2 good will on Vietnam, and 9/11 goodwill on Iraq. Sometimes humanity is doomed to repeat its mistakes until it learns from them.

Re: Japan - WTF?
 

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Just because the majority of the world believes war in general is justifiable and necessary, doesnt make it right.


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That is, sort of, what I meant... The majority of the world is moving to a position that opposes unwarranted or whimsical decisions, and, surely, does not support those made solely on self/particular/narrowly national interests.

As I said before, in other ways, I feel that the US has sqandered all, and more than, the international goodwill it generated during WWII, since then.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Midge, enjoy your bat signal-like posting prowess whenever an opportunity arises to bash America. I for one would feel empty without your unceasing commitment to such profundities as "The majority of the world is moving to a position that opposes unwarranted or whimsical decisions." Thanks again and I will do my best to get the word out to my fellow Americans.

History Re-Written
 

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Uhm... the last time we were involved in a war with China, we are ALLIES against the Japanese...

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Oh? When the Chinese attacked us in 1950 I was not aware we were also at war with Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war

Re: History Re-Written
 

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Uhm... the last time we were involved in a war with China, we are ALLIES against the Japanese...

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Oh? When the Chinese attacked us in 1950 I was not aware we were also at war with Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war

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Felix,

Im glad that you posted again in this thread but sad you decided to nit pick tertiary historical comments as opposed to restating or arguing the comments you made previously that put you squarely on the side of those who would deny well documented acts of genocide. Im particularly looking forward to you backing up your "Japan is growing balls by denying a record which boasts some of the worst atrocities of World War Two (on any front by any side)" arguement.

Re: History Re-Written
 

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restating or arguing the comments you made previously that put you squarely on the side of those who would deny well documented acts of genocide.

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You can not support this ridciulous statement....
It is hard to argue politics with someone who misrepresents what you have said.

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"Japan is growing balls by denying a record which boasts some of the worst atrocities of World War Two (on any front by any side)" arguement.

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Putting Japan and Germany on a 60 year guilt trip is a long time. The actions of the Japanese Prime Minister are those of a man who is resentful of the repeated and prolong assaults on the pride of the Japanese nation. The USA has a military alliance with Taiwan. By treaty, if the Chi-Coms attack, the USA will be at war with Communist China. I want Japan to be on our side and have the 100+ million Japanese on our side to fight the billion Chi-Coms... I would like to see Japan rearm.

Re: History Re-Written
 

Felix,
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Putting Japan and Germany on a 60 year guilt trip is a long time. The actions of the Japanese Prime Minister are those of a man who is resentful of the repeated and prolong assaults on the pride of the Japanese nation.

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No, they are indicative of a prolonged and systematic attempt by the Japanese government to bury all evidence of wrongdoing. Japanese schoolchildren are not taught about what happened in WWII. It's wiped from their closely controlled history books. I've seen young (20-something) Japanese become shocked and ashamed to the point of tears when learning the truth about their culture and their history. They are simply never taught. Compare that to Germany, where they owned up to their wrongdoing, and made a determined attempt to destroy all remnants of Nazi ideology. Their parliament made a law saying that the history of the Holocaust and German atrocities must be taught in German schools.

The trouble is that Japan today still has elements of the culture that spawned the horror of WWII. The blind obedience to authority. The belief in racial purity. A deep nationalism and suspicion of foreigners. A culture of male domination. Don't get me wrong, the Japanese are a friendly, generous and successful people, and in many areas they put Americans to shame. But underneath this stuff still exists. Many of those who committed atrocities went on to positions of power in government and elsewhere, and it's no surprise that they've been trying to rewrite history ever since WWII finished. Imagine the outcry if the Germans had tried to do the same thing, and allowed former Nazi leaders to go on to positions of power in government and elsewhere, instead of facing war crimes charges.

The PM's comments are an outrage, and we should be appalled. I'm amazed this debate is even happening.