I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

Villain is unknown, new at the table. I was going to give up but then his river bet screamed "shove on me" so I did. I don't do the whole pounce on block bets very often cuz it's normally just a donk trying to get a call but i thought his line screamed marginal hand so I took a shot at it. What do you think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($2428.25)
Hero ($1060)
SB ($705.60)
BB ($648)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $50.

Flop: ($170) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $120</font>, SB calls $120.

Turn: ($410) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($410) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $110</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $860</font>]

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

I dont like any street, honestly. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like any street, honestly. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Good news FWF, you played this hand perfectly

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like any street, honestly. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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i don't see what's wrong with the flop bet. as far as the river shove goes, i'm not sure i like it. i feel like if villain really thinks about it he should realize that you can't really have anything.

edit: and yea, pf is very gross imo

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is unknown

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[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $30, SB raises to $80, 1 fold, Hero calls $50.


[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

pf is kinda gross

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

hmm i agree, i dont like any street!

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
pf is kinda gross

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it was a small reraise and an ego-call. obviously not great, but i don't think it's gross. now on to the shove (not because i think preflop doesn't matter but because I think it's pretty clear cut)

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
now on to the shove (not because i think preflop doesn't matter but because I think it's pretty clear cut)

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i think villain has a monster %50+ here.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

I do agree his line seems very weak. But, am I wrong in assuming that he wont fold any ace on this kind of board?

So you're most likely making 99-JJ and KK fold. AJ+ will call since hes shorty. Hell even KK might make a hero call all depending on your image and his competency:P

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

i like your play. i've done this before (on ppl who i have a read as level 1 thinkers), and CHACHING $$$

but vs unknown is very meh~!?@

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

i think he'd be more likely to c/c the river with KK than to bet/fold.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pf is kinda gross

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it was a small reraise and an ego-call. obviously not great, but i don't think it's gross. now on to the shove (not because i think preflop doesn't matter but because I think it's pretty clear cut)

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ok, river push is a little bit of a misnomer bc villain has 70bb to start. so you're laying 510 to pick up 510 (roughly) so if this works half the time its good. I think it will work more then half the time, so it seems good.

i think it would work because it doesnt look like this guy reads hands and his hand looks weak. He bought in short, and after reraising preflop check called the flop.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

I like this if villain is a terrible hand reader. you dont represent aaaaanything with this line. it definitely looks like he has KK though and almost certainly isnt calling that bet

everyone is def gonna say "what hand can you have?" but honestly, i cant see villain having anything he has the balls to call either

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

call pre really really sucks imo. I'd check the flop, and fold to any turn bet.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

you just can't be getting out of line in hands like this against an unknown whose probably a donk (e.g. not bought in full).

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

I don't see why I can't have 78, 67, etc

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

from our perspective or from his?

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

Against a guy who bought in short, who I will assume is a donk until shown otherwise, I like it.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

also the only hand he can have that folds is KK/JJ. And for every time he has KK/JJ theres 3 more times where he's slowplaying AA, AQ, QQ, or AK

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a guy who bought in short, who I will assume is a donk until shown otherwise, I like it.

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Aren't donks the ones we want to avoid bluffing, especially when they are shortstacked, and on that board??

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why I can't have 78, 67, etc

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you obviously can, i dont think he's going to think that though. i agree with TWP ([img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img], is that taboo these days? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]), i dont think he's bet/folding KK/JJ or Qx here. i think he either slowplayed something or will look you up a decent amount with and ace. also agree that u can dump it pf. i know that feeling of getting RRd small and having [censored]...so annoying but i think folding is better probably- especially against guys who probably wont be folding much postflop (natural assumption with no reads vs. some1 who bought in short)

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

I think river is good.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

If we give him credit for a 3 betting range of TT+. AQ+, which I think is a good standard range for an unknown. He'll fold TT/JJ but I doubt he plays those hands like this, the river bet would make little sense unless he tried to induce a bluff in which case he calls the river raise. KK seems like the main hand we're targeting, which his line seems to fit KK pretty well although I think KK normally checks the river as well. Also we have a K in our hand so that makes KK a little less likely, FWIW.

So basically I think this is pretty bad, we get looked up by a lot of hands here given his range.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

If you get looked up, I think you deserve strassa's title of "can have ANYTHING"

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

I can't say I'm a fan of preflop, or river.

I think villain's hand looks most like AT. He wasn't sure if he was ahead on the riv, so he made a small bet to either get value from a worse hand or discourage a larger bet by a better ace. Since your push on the end doesn't represent much of anything, I assume he tanks and calls.

It's a valiant effort though.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we give him credit for a 3 betting range of TT+. AQ+, which I think is a good standard range for an unknown. He'll fold TT/JJ but I doubt he plays those hands like this, the river bet would make little sense unless he tried to induce a bluff in which case he calls the river raise. KK seems like the main hand we're targeting, which his line seems to fit KK pretty well although I think KK normally checks the river as well. Also we have a K in our hand so that makes KK a little less likely, FWIW.

So basically I think this is pretty bad, we get looked up by a lot of hands here given his range.

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i give unknowns a much wider range for small reraising than you do. i see stuff like KJ, KQ, and a motley assortment of junk a good amount i feel like

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you get looked up, I think you deserve strassa's title of "can have ANYTHING"

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why does whether i get called change whether I can have K9 here or not? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

i just threw up a little

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
i just threw up a little

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welcome to twoplustwo, keep up the quality posting!

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

man i dont like this

if you have a 7, don't you shove expecting to get paid?

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
man i dont like this

if you have a 7, don't you shove expecting to get paid?

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obviously not given that i bluffed this. you shove a 7 here because there's no reason not to, not because it works every time.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

touche

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you get looked up, I think you deserve strassa's title of "can have ANYTHING"

[/ QUOTE ]

why does whether i get called change whether I can have K9 here or not? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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From the villians perspective, I'm sure K9 is the last hand he's expecting to see.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

this is great with a read hes nitty or scared money, but without reads this is awwwwwwwwful.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

i got some issues with this:

1. it's pretty damn hard to rep a 7 (and what's more, you can't have A7 or 87) in a 3-bet pot with 100 bb stacks, mainly because of psychology. people just think toward big card hands.

2. he might just get paranoid and talk himself into calling since he bet so small

3. his tiny preflop 3-bet and tiny river bet make him look like he's not a very good player

4. he has an ace, and it could be AK. he could be betting small with AA figuring he has the deck cripled and wants to make some money on his hand

Results
 

Well, this one got mixed reviews. Villain tanked to the last second and folded what I assume was his KK and I showed.

Re: I\'ve Heard Good Players Do This
 

if you plan on floating the flop then betting the turn is way better than shoving river.

Re: Results
 

KK?

Anyway I think I like a smaller raise on the river. I know for sure you can have a 7 here, the issue is that its harder to rep any type of made hand (like a fh) so I am usually too scared to try this move. I also feel like every time I have a seven here I get paid off. I usually give up here, and I know you do too, but I guess once in a while if the gut tells you, I think a play like this is fine and probably makes you tougher to play against.

Re: Results
 

From the results, it looks like your play on every street is pretty -EV, with the possible exception of the river push. But if he in fact had KK, then I'd say his hand is at the weakest end of his range and he still timed down to the last second. But of course we'll never know what he had. Maybe he folded QQ and your river push is +++EV.