You never know where you are
 

More days of bad cards, bad play and bad luck. I can't get rid of the blues, but the whites seem to be going pretty fast. (And grays and browns, whatever the lowest denomination chips.)

Something I'm seeing a lot is the most incredibly passive play. Sometimes it's scary, most times okay, and all times it's weird.

Lately more and more people are playing big hands so passively that when they turn over the cards, you have to do everything you can to keep from saying, "what??? You gotta be kidding me! Uh, at what point did you think you're hand was no good?"

Several times I've been playing something like A9 on the button strongly, only to have the CO turn over AK. No raises, no reason to think my A9 isn't good.

One time, I hit my straight on the river, K high. I turn it over and the lady directly to my right turns over AQ and says, "mine's bigger." Huh??? You had AQ all this time and never raised?

Believe it or not, I saw a lady call the river with a Royal, a few days ago. Her I did have to ask, "did you think you were beat?"

This is happening more and more. People are so afraid of being sucked out on and content to just win the pot, whatever is in it, that you never know where you are in a hand. Raises mean nothing in small stakes games, so they just sit tight. It can make playing in these games like walking through a mine field. You not only have to dodge a lot of outs from the loose players, but then your hand might not even be good if you make it.

The one good thing is they don't charge you the maximum for playing your hand. The times when they will be on the losing side, you are charging them. The difference can be seen as profit. How much if any is an open question?


CJ

Re: You never know where you are
 

Just say 'Nice Hand Maam.' It's all you can do, and they will feel good about the way that they played it.

Re: You never know where you are
 

A few days ago I had KJo in the BB. Three or four players limped in and I checked. The flop came K high. I bet and only a new early position player called. I bet the turn, he called. I bet the river, and he raised. I figure two pair, since there was no straight or flush on the board. I called. He turns over AA.

In the last month I have seen a number of players slow playing AA like this.

Re: You never know where you are
 

LP game a few months ago. 4/8 i think.

i limp early with 33. like 6 limpers.

flop comes 23Q. i bet some folks call, old lady calls.

turn 6. old lady bets out, i raise, all fold. she calls.

turn 8. she check calls and flips over 45 for the stone cold nuts.

i ask her if she feared i had two jokers in my hand.

her response:

"well i just got back from playing stud, so i dont know ok ill stop playing like that"

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: You never know where you are
 

OP I have to agree with you 1000%. I have found the low limit games are growing considerably passive and weak to the point of absurdity like you said.

I was in a game the other day with two older ladies who would not bet anything under two pair. They would c/c anything less and never raise. If you are observant you can start to pick this up and it's no big deal. Needless to say they both lost.

I found the game to be "trap city." So like you say it was hard to tell where you're at because nobody has the guts to take the lead for fear of all the people sitting in the weeds.

In a way, I think people at low limits are trying to hard not to "lose" that makes the game this way. They are trying to save bets and minimize losing. People are not trying to maximize EV. They are playing "sure thing" poker, but "sure thing poker" only works for a short while, until observant opponents know what they are doing and stop calling their bets. Then they start c/c with big hands, since no one will call their bet, and they stand to make more by c/c. That's when you start to see some ridiculousness like what you posted.

When I see players like this, I usually want to boot them out of the game with a baseball bat. They are usually old tight people. But, just try to sit behind them so you dont have to act before they do. This always helps. Or, leave the game. Find one where people are betting and raising on nothing and then play like they do.

-J

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
A few days ago I had KJo in the BB. Three or four players limped in and I checked. The flop came K high. I bet and only a new early position player called. I bet the turn, he called. I bet the river, and he raised. I figure two pair, since there was no straight or flush on the board. I called. He turns over AA.

In the last month I have seen a number of players slow playing AA like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last week, I had KJs in EP and nine players saw the flop. I won with a flush on the river and pulled a monster pot beating AA UTG. This is an example of how you profit when they play this way, but it does increase the variance a lot.

Re: You never know where you are
 

I don't complain about this...They're losing money... It's frustrating to see sometimes, but once you identify players like this, I start slowing down especially with a hand like top pair where they just call with an over pair or AK, etc.

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is an example of how you profit when they play this way, but it does increase the variance a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how it increases the variance if there's less bets going into the pots so you win or lose less moneys.

Recently at 4/8:

Fish (who recently beat me with a two paired 43o in a raised pot) openlimps in MP, I raise on the button with JJ.

Headsup, a raggedy flop. He check/calls. Turn another rag, he bets out. I am incredulous and steamed "what? Another two pair?" so I just call down. He says "one pair" and flips over queens.

I am upset that I am beat by both trash and underplayed legitimate hands, so I leave to take a puke break.

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't complain about this...They're losing money... It's frustrating to see sometimes, but once you identify players like this, I start slowing down especially with a hand like top pair where they just call with an over pair or AK, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are fit/fold type players and very weak-tight, then yes, I agree. If they are the type though that play the same exact way w/ 2nd or 3rd pair, then you must keep pressing in certain situations for value.

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't complain about this...They're losing money... It's frustrating to see sometimes, but once you identify players like this, I start slowing down especially with a hand like top pair where they just call with an over pair or AK, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are fit/fold type players and very weak-tight, then yes, I agree. If they are the type though that play the same exact way w/ 2nd or 3rd pair, then you must keep pressing in certain situations for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to answer Man of Means question, this is how it increases the variance. Do you value bet or check it down? If you bet and they have a bigger hand, you lose, and if you check it down and you have the better hand, you don't get paid. That's how it increases the variance.

Re: You never know where you are
 

you play better hands than they do. you push for value when you usually have the best of it. in time you will get the money.

this type of player makes it crucial to learn how to interpret "tells" when in a live atmosphere. alot of times these opponents vary their reactions by the strength of their hands. learn these reactions and it can almost be as good as them flipping their cards face up.

i'm a pretty quiet guy by nature. when at a poker table it lends me to just quietly observe between or during a hand. i don't watch the flop or the turncard. i'm watching every move they make as the situation unfolds and how they react to it. as you bet watch their face, their shoulders, how they sit, and how they throw chips in the pot(force, direction, etc.). sometimes noticing that extra flinch from an opponent when you bet means on the next round it might be better to check, or it might mean you have them crushed. learn the difference.

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
this type of player makes it crucial to learn how to interpret "tells" when in a live atmosphere. alot of times these opponents vary their reactions by the strength of their hands. learn these reactions and it can almost be as good as them flipping their cards face up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said. I couldn't have said it better.

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
this type of player makes it crucial to learn how to interpret "tells" when in a live atmosphere. alot of times these opponents vary their reactions by the strength of their hands. learn these reactions and it can almost be as good as them flipping their cards face up.

[/ QUOTE ]I do try this when I'm playing live (2/4 or 5/10 euro), but I never seem to pick up any tell, not even a vague one. I've looked in the micro FAQ and searched a bit on the forums, but I can't find any thread/article which explains the first baby steps. There's so many people to watch and so many things I could be paying attention to. Should I just start observing only one or two players in a session? What are the best things to start looking for as a newbie? I've ordered Mike Caro's book but it will take some time before it arrives; is it any good?

(Sorry for the thread hijack but I'm also getting pissed off; the other night a guy was calling to the river with his JJ on a KJ763 rainbowbord while I was "value"betting my TP).

Re: You never know where you are
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've looked in the micro FAQ and searched a bit on the forums, but I can't find any thread/article which explains the first baby steps. There's so many people to watch and so many things I could be paying attention to. Should I just start observing only one or two players in a session? What are the best things to start looking for as a newbie? I've ordered Mike Caro's book but it will take some time before it arrives; is it any good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Caro's book is probably the best one out(or at least the best one out that i've heard of). you need to remember it's far from perfect, though. you also need to keep in mind that many players react differently to each situation. this is often a reflection of the player's personality. Caro's book is good at identifying the little physical things, but it's still going to be up to you to interpret it at the table.

the only other advice i can give is watch. when out of a hand, sit there and watch the mannerisms of these people. how do they react when raised? when they plan on folding do they make premature motions? when they plan on betting/raising do they get the chips ready beforehand? how are they protecting their cards? are they aggressively splashing chips or are they deliberate and concise? all of these bits of info may add up to your being able to make a slightly better decision because you "notice" something. as with anything, it's something you get better at over time and with practice. watch. listen. learn.

Re: You never know where you are
 

Hey Buddy! That's a good thing; don't complain.

I was in a game where villain flopped quads and checked both turn and river, you have to count your blessings and just write a note that starts with: J~ <*{{}}}{

Re: You never know where you are
 

Might as well add my war story, played a hand a while back, guy on the button called through the whole hand. He had queens on a queen hi flop where the board paired on the turn. So yes, from the button he had QQ PF, flopped top set, turned top boat and never once raised.

Re: You never know where you are
 

I like James reply of how he watches players reactions to the flop and turn rather than the cards themselves. This is something I need to do more of for sure. I am guilty of getting caught up in my own hand and the board that I st times forget to watch the other players in on the hand. Simple but a good one James

Re: You never know where you are
 

I've also been frustrated by this from time to time. Depending on how loose the whole table is though, it seems like it can afford great opportunities to limp with a greater variety of drawing hands and see free cards (again, assuming there will be enough limps and calls in the pot to be worth winning).

If they're afraid pocket AA got outflopped, the free-card raise in late position almost always works.

I hope your luck turns around.