Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

What I am about to say is something that I believe most psychologists who study the subject agree with. But it is less well known among the general public. It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game.

Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief.

Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I was talking to a maths professor a few days ago who had been very irritated by a student who sent him an email and ended it 'god bless'.

not sure what's wrong with unmatching shoes - do you just mean functional differences or do you feel strongly about socks as well?

god bless

chez

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I have some questions that I'd hope you'd answer that are related to this. I know it's not completely on topic, but I'd appreciate your input on this even though they are semi axiom questions.

Which do you find harder to cope with socially?

Having to lie, or the truth being unacceptable VS Telling the truth but being in an akward social situation.

Pretending you care when you don't VS Being rude or an ass.

Being wrong but being well liked VS Being disliked but being correct.


These three spots plague me constantly in social situations and I have trouble justifying doing the more socially accepted option a lot of the time. I know you must be put in these spots all the time and I wonder how you deal with them.


example: Someone explaining something that is obviously incorrect and obvious immediately, yet you need to fake that his opinion could be valid, and need to stand there listening to what you know is garbage without rolling your eyes.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

Very insightful. I'm mathematically adept, and I agree completely.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

What happens when you put a group of people that all have math talent, Asperger's Syndrome together? Is it the math skill that makes them socially inept or just that they are different from others they normally interact with?

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

i guess one of the things self-described math geniuses can't do well is construct valid arguments or accurately report those of the scientific community.

just as there is no 'intrinsic' reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs, so too is there no 'intrinsic' reason why social conventions are ridiculous or silly and thus worthy of contempt. viewed objectively they are value-neutral. if someone chooses to do something it is because: a) they value it for its own sake, or; b) they realise it will aid in the pursuance of a long-term goal that does have inherent value (social status, wealth, maintenace or improvement of health etc.). math geniuses who choose not to observe social conventions either don't care about them, don't have long-term goals that require them, or as is almost always the case with those afflicted with the various forms of autism, they have perceptual biases that do not allow them to even become aware of them in the first place.

it's really that simple. you cannot argue that bathing is more 'logical' than saying 'god bless you' when someone sneezes. actions are initiated to solve a self-generated problem. if someone's programming is such that they assign zero value to personal hygiene or the goals it will allow them to successfully pursue, either because they don't notice or because their prefrontal cortex doesn't allow them to see those higher-order relationships, then they have no reason to bathe. actions are predicated on internal value schema. no value, no action.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

they'll ignore each other. part of their brain doesn't work properly and they do not naturally observe facial expressions or body language, thus missing out on the natural cues humans use to create and build rapport w/members of their group.

it isn't a long-term planning problem. because of some malfunction, highly maladaptive until just a few centuries ago, the evaluative circuitry underlying attentional direction and focus does not 'force' them to clue in to what most of us do naturally. it's likely a spectrum disorder - less functional mirror neurons or less connections b/n them and other parts of the brain (or some conceptual analogue of this description) is the supposed cause.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grade 5!?

Man even when I was in grade 9 I didn't care what clothing I wore and I don't ever remember anyone giving me a hard time about it. Were you in a rich kid school or something? In grade 5 every pair of pants I wore had holes in the knees or they had patches because of holes. Sometimes patches with holes in them!

I really find this hard to beleive. You felt shame about your style in grade 5? There is no way the other kids that age gave you a hard time it must have been older kids saying that to you just in jest.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I am about to say is something that I believe most psychologists who study the subject agree with. But it is less well known among the general public. It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game.

Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief.

Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL @ u Skalansky.

I find there are many medical labels for personality traits (or shortcomings, depending how you look at it)that have a big 'ole grey area that is never really discussed -

1) at what degree does a person just have Asperger's, or is just kind of a douche? is there a gene that determines it? or a series of genetic code that differs slighly in each one of us, with each minor change maybe making the "symptoms" greater or worse?

2) I feel you posed the question in this very entertaining forum (I feel I am qualified to say that:) ) because of you own personal insecurities towards women. Some dudes just don't have any game, and there certainly is a genetic explaination for it, but I feel that basically everyone is made differently. You are of course a mathmatics wiz, great poker player, and amazing technical writer - but for whatever reason that is not what the chicks dig.

They want the bad guy - it is something in their DNA. Many women call the nice guy when they need help, but call the bad guy when they want to be "stuffed like a thanksgiving turkey." I know you are NOT the dude they call to get that satisfaction from. You're just not the type for *most* chicks - but obv. there are freaks that love to just trip out a dude like you, real straight laced and stuff. Gotta holla via Myspace / Craigslist. I just think that's why u asked the Q in the first place.

Just my $0.02 on 4.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

err, surely u noticed all the cool kids were dressed more stylishly than their social 'inferiors'? your attire demonstrates your degree of wealth and, more importantly, your relative degree of mastery over the culture you share w/your coevals. it is very important even in gr 5 and esp in gr 9.

unlikely you'll be a direct target unless you're someone who doesn't realise where they 'belong' on the totem. if you've misassessed your social value you will be ridiculed, often mercilessly.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
they'll ignore each other. part of their brain doesn't work properly and they do not naturally observe facial expressions or body language, thus missing out on the natural cues humans use to create and build rapport w/members of their group.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for trying to explain it to me I understood this part at least. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So what can a dumb person like me say to these people to make them comfy when I see them? Is "I am going to say some dumb stuff now but I am just doing it so we both will feel more relaxed. Tell me to take off if you are busy thinking on something tho ok." any good?

I'm leaving this thread pretty sure I am bothering a few people already. lol

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
err, surely u noticed all the cool kids were dressed more stylishly than their social 'inferiors'? your attire demonstrates your degree of wealth and, more importantly, your relative degree of mastery over the culture you share w/your coevals. it is very important even in gr 5 and esp in gr 9.

unlikely you'll be a direct target unless you're someone who doesn't realise where they 'belong' on the totem. if you've misassessed your social value you will be ridiculed, often mercilessly.



[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously can't tell you who dressed nicer than me or worse than me when I was in grade 5. Around grade 8 and 9 maybe, for sure in grade 10. Some people were cleaner than others tho. I remember smelly kids getting teased.

I think we all remember different things selectively I am sure some kids thought about clothing at that age. I really find it hard to believe guys did tho. All the guys I knew just liked playing football, baseball ect. I guess that was how we set our pecking order. We even played with the smelly kids they were normally the best ones. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

The majority of people who are good at math have just spent a lot of time and focus working on it. They often have one track minds that don't broaden well to deal with the complexities, uncertainties and feelings evoked by social interactions.

As for your comments about silly social rituals, there are ways to grease the wheels without doing anything stupid or demeaning. People with exception social skills prove that.

Math geeks are awkward because they don't grasp human emotion and the subtleties of social interaction. They're often ugly and lacking in confidence as well. It's comforting to believe that intelligence is the reason they're social cripples, but that's just not true. I was smarter than everyone in my college physics/math classes and had a good social life as well. There were others in my classes who were also intelligent and not socially awkward.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I am about to say is something that I believe most psychologists who study the subject agree with. But it is less well known among the general public. It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game.

Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief.

Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is all ego. It's great that you have mastered the PROCESS of logic and math. Even so until you embrace and RESPECT other aspects of human intelligence like emotional intelligence you'll be like a human calculator.

We all know that we can buy a calculator at any convience store for a couple of bucks.

Thank you though for writing the best poker book ever written.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

It gets muddy when you go into detail, but if the person who is being a douche doesn't realize they are being one then it's hard to blame for being a douche. Even more so if after explaining to them why what the did was wierd they still can't see it.

I see what you're trying to say basically "they blame x for why they suck at Y, even though it's their own fault". I'd be more inclined to agree if being good at Y wasn't something EVERYONE wants to be good at. Also if it doesn't require a lot of effort what reason would someone not do it?

I don't think it's the same as someone saying their fat because they retain water or big boned. That person is giving an excuse for why they don't exercise (lots of effort) or overeat (give in to temptation). Some guy with AS really isn't doing either of those.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

"many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous."

How much of the behavior of math geniuses that you describe do you think is due to the obvious ridiculousness of dumber people, and how much do you think is due to the superiority complex that math geniuses develop in reaction to it?

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I think a truly intelligent person would be able to see to the next level beyond dismissing all these social conventions and be able to easily see why things like saying "What's up?" or investing yourself emotionally in a sports team are reasonable and valuable.

It's the almost-smart person that views things the way you describe. Roughly equivalent to the guy who always knows enough to try to sound smarter than everyone else but not enough to avoid proving himself to be a complete idiot. I think we all have that friend.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

First, I lumped Asperger's and math talent together because there is a lot of overlap. But they are different. Asperger's patients have trouble relating to what others are feeling so that is part of their problem. But they share with the math geeks the feeling that many social conventions are artificially contrived with no logical basis behind them. And they thus feel uncomfortable using those conventions. But as I said, plenty of smart people decide to go with the flow until it eventually becomes almost as second nature to them as those who never thought about the silliness of many of those conventions.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I think it's a diservice to those with math/science ability to promote this stereotype of the socially retarded geek. I've associated with a lot of talented mathematicians and I've never seen this correlation with social retardation. I've found them to be bright, charming, and socially competent.

I've also known people with extraordinary social skills who have little talent in math. Their skills have to do with things like, empathy, making others feel comfortable, making others feel important, pursuading others, inspiring others, leading others, managing others, getting others to do what they want and feel good about it. I don't see much relationship between these kinds of things and the stuff David is talking about. I also don't see math ability being much help for these kinds of skills.

Different people have different talents.

PairTheBoard

Intelligence != wisdom
 

[ QUOTE ]
But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect another reason is that intelligence sometimes crowds out wisdom, especially in young. (I'll elaborate below your second quote.)

There is plenty of other inductive evidence of this phenomenon, by the way. Here are a few recent examples that required genius+ level intellectual prowess coupled with a staggering lack of wisdom:

1. The creation of genetically modified corn and its introduction into agriculture in settings that allow the modified strains to be introduced into the wider world by insects, wind, and other natural forces
2. The manufacturing of (and possible genetic tampering with) smallpox weapons in the former Soviet Union after smallpox vaccination had ceased worldwide
3. A personal favorite of mine, the berating of fish by poker logicians who explain theory in detail at the table, including loud, expositive dissertations on how the fish utterly failed to apply sound poker principles with his abysmal play of the hand, and how he should expect to lose his ass if he keeps on playing this way, the stupid moron, how the hell could he possibly call two bets cold with that trash, didn't he know he was drawing to two outs that might not even be good if he hit them, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you didn't realize at the time was that humans are social animals with strong hierarchical tendencies. Actually, if you had thought about it, you probably would have realized it; but your preference for "objective" activities (probably amplified by your ego telling you how much better and more logical were your preferences than those of your cohorts) interfered with your ability to recognize how this related to the problem you were faced with: you didn't submit to the common idea of what clothes were "right" at an age when this is important to humans, and you were castigated for it. The guy who decided what's in isn't irrelevant: he was directly relevant to you. You just didn't like it.

So the taunts pissed you off, but the fault (albeit unsurprising because of your age) was in you: your antagonists were stupid (by comparison to you) and you're smart by comparison to almost anybody, right? So shouldn't you either have ignored their taunts (who cares what lesser minds think?) or spent a few minutes perusing a J Crew (or equivalent) catalog and dressing to kill so that you could more easily manipulate them into treating you in a manner you'd have found more amenable.

The point is, there are sociological formulae that are almost mathematical in efficacy. Here, I'll prove it: Are you a guy who wants to get laid during your college years but haven't had much luck so far? Learn* to club dance. Work at home as scientifically as possible, but remember that it's perfectly fine "look like an idiot"** when you get on the floor. Do what you can to follow the beat of the music, and when in doubt, assume the more energetic your movements, the better.

Don't waste your time trying to figure out why dancing will get you laid. It probably has to do with some birdlike tendency in women to appreciate the vigorous mating gestures and obvious display of self-assuredness by the yadda yadda - but who cares? The point is it works. This is an applied science. Use it or don't, but don't piss and moan about it just because it doesn't fit with your preconceived view of how things "ought" to be.

Best regards,
Jogger

*I put "learn" in quotes because there are multiple ways to dance that will work fine. You don't need to be rigorous in your approach, and you won't really become proficient at anything substantive in any traditional, "hard" way.

**This is natural and actually helpful, as too much technical skill may look forced and can harm your chances of getting laid.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

OK, so you're arguing that math geeks make a principled or aesthetic stand against silly behavior, and suffer socially as a result? And that less intelligent people don't, because they're just spinal cords with impulses who can't observe the silliness of their behavior? I find myself agreeing with that on some level.

But ultimately I think it comes down to this: If you understand life to a reasonable degree, you'll realize that most of life's meaning is in social relationships. And most social skills aren't skills, as such, but having your heart in the right place.

Like understanding that other people have feelings and needs just like yours. Like believing other people are basically good, and worthwhile. Like caring that others are comfortable and feel included. Like not wanting to impose your will on anyone else's freedom or happiness. Like having the courage to be assertive.

For an intelligent person, the only real skill element to successful social interaction is the ability to read people's moods, and a limited amount of general social knowledge. These can be learnt with time, unless you an autism like disorder.

So ultimately I think it's less about being "uncomfortable with silliness" and more about lacking one or several of these traits. Which I think may have been what andyfox was getting at with his superiority comment.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

Oh but I agree with most of what you say. Of course you should do what is necessary to achieve your goals regardless of whether you think they are silly. I came to that conclusion many many years ago. I'm just saying that is a bit harder for some (not me any more) if the silliness slaps you in the face.

The truth is that my goal is to teach as many of the nerdy people as possible to put aside their discomfort and learn the illogical conventions. Many don't now because they think it is sort of insulting to the airheads who like it. ("Sure I'll help you with your trig homework. You are a nice person." rather than "Screw the homework, lets go out tonight, I'll let you cheat off me on the test tomorrow") But I've been over that for 35 years. If most geeks learn to get over that they will take over the world.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

"Of course you should do what is necessary to achieve your goals regardless of whether you think they are silly."

whether or not something is judged silly doesn't depend on incontrovertible logical dictates. no social convention is inherently 'silly' or 'illogical' and they may only be judged so when additional suppositions are made. math geniuses aren't especially discerning social critics - those you're referring to (a modest %, i'm sure) are socially dysfunctional for reasons unrelated to their aptitude.

and for what it's worth, all experimental evidence thus far indicates there is a very positive correlation between social acculturation and intelligence as measured by IQ tests through the entire range.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

David,

It seems to me that we should make a distinction between people that CAN'T exercise rudimentary social skills versus those who elect not to. The former is sometimes referred to as "mind blindness" and stems from an inability to read social cues that might tip one to the appropriate response. Oftentimes the response itself might be trivial, but nevertheless these people have a diminished ability to process certain types of information. If this capacity is very diminished, they may be diagnosed as autistic.

Of course, there are lots of people that elect to ignore certain forms of social etiquette. Some people might "correctly" deduce that certain social graces aren't worth their time and energy. Others might be too narcissistic to see the forest for the trees and won't recognize that observing certain social rituals will ultimately be to their benefit. Finally, you have plain old vanilla boredom, which can make it difficult to relate to your immediate environment.

How does intelligence tie into all of this? I imagine that very bright people (and very dumb people) are more likely to be bored in mixed company; boredom in its extreme forms can certainly make one appear to be anti-social.

On the other hand, I tend not to be so sympathetic to the argument that "intelligent" people are more able to "see through" the importance of social rituals. I'd wager that many of your fifth grade classmates were just as capable as you were of detecting that the whole business about cuffless pants was silly on some level. Perhaps in fact they were more aware of the social consequences of their choice.

However, I do think there is something more profound going on. Specifically, I think that there is a relationship between intelligence at certain tasks like complex mathematical and creative pursuits, and being able to marshal a higher percentage of the brain's resources toward this task. In other words, intelligent people have the ability to concentrate very deeply on something; perhaps this is part of what makes them intelligent.

I know that when I'm concentrating very intently on something complex, I find it relatively easy to shut off other stimuli in my environment. For example, I might have left the TV on for several hours without having any recollection of what program was on. Or if someone else was in the room and trying to ask me a question, I might not "hear" their question until the second or third time they asked it. At these times, my behavior can arguably resemble that which you might see in someone with autism. Perhaps even I've temporarily become "mind blind". But, I'm able to drift into and out of this frame of mind with relative ease, whereas an autistic person is not.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
know that when I'm concentrating very intently on something complex, I find it relatively easy to shut off other stimuli in my environment. For example, I might have left the TV on for several hours without having any recollection of what program was on. Or if someone else was in the room and trying to ask me a question, I might not "hear" their question until the second or third time they asked it. At these times, my behavior can arguably resemble that which you might see in someone with autism

[/ QUOTE ]

That eerily describes me.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

you are smart enough to think that random every day stuff is stupid but then get mad when kids make fun of you?

getting upset about teasing sounds pretty freakin dumb to me.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...idSklansky.jpg

Nice shirt [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Btw, you should watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind", because their portrait of Nash shows a guy who had difficulties following the accepted ritual of talking to women. It's quite funny.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, I tend not to be so sympathetic to the argument that "intelligent" people are more able to "see through" the importance of social rituals. I'd wager that many of your fifth grade classmates were just as capable as you were of detecting that the whole business about cuffless pants was silly on some level. Perhaps in fact they were more aware of the social consequences of their choice

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get your meaning here. Even if what you say is true doesn't that make it even sillier? I can't deal with social situations in where I'm required to lie or required to not say what everyone else is thinking (but trying not to say). I just find it so distasteful that I'd rather be kicked out than participate. I don't know if that makes me smart, stupid, socially inept, etc, but I realize what's being asked and that I should do it to fit in, but I just find it too stupid and too ugly to join in. Even being shamed by the group because of it is not as bad as the self shame I feel for participating. It's very similair to the when I stopped being Christian. I mean I liked being in the group and everything, but I just couldn't do something I thought wasn't correct. It's a dealbreaker. Sometimes even in trivial situations when you get punished in a non trivial way. It can't be just me who thinks this way. Way back when they tried to force religious conversion after conquering people and they put you to death if you refused, some people still refused. Some people are just incapable of saying something they don't think is right is correct, even if they'll be killed for it! I don't think they did it because they wanted to be [censored] or were socially inept, they just found it too distasteful and would rather die. I know the religious aspect of this clouds their ultimate reasoning for their decision, but even so I think you can see the similairities between this and other social situations.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh but I agree with most of what you say. Of course you should do what is necessary to achieve your goals regardless of whether you think they are silly. I came to that conclusion many many years ago. I'm just saying that is a bit harder for some (not me any more) if the silliness slaps you in the face.

The truth is that my goal is to teach as many of the nerdy people as possible to put aside their discomfort and learn the illogical conventions. Many don't now because they think it is sort of insulting to the airheads who like it. ("Sure I'll help you with your trig homework. You are a nice person." rather than "Screw the homework, lets go out tonight, I'll let you cheat off me on the test tomorrow") But I've been over that for 35 years. If most geeks learn to get over that they will take over the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, some of these individuals who have these social problems do not understand the importance of social skills and their social status. Some who comprehend how impaired social interactions can be, but learn to master and use them to succeed socially and satisfy the human social hierarchy desire that was discussed earlier in the thread. More that don't understand the level of thought being discussed here and may in many cases have a good status or be labeled 'popular' socially with no self-comprehension of this (probably not involved much in this forum or type of thread).

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have been a victim of what Paul Graham calls "the popularity rat race". He's written an essay which very eloquently elaborates on the topics you bring up, see

"Why Nerds are Unpopular"

Many of his other essays on his website are also extremely good reads, and he has ideas which seems to "gel" with yours, being a science- and logic-oriented libertarian.

Graham is an interesting character, not the least because he uses his wealth to fund small upstart tech companies with the smartest young people around.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I have a real problem with saying "bless you" when someone sneezes, not because of atheism, but because it is stupid. I feel like an idiot telling someone bless you because of some ancient belief that the "evil spirits" are infecting them. But sometimes I'll be sitting in the office, or an elevator, and someone very close to me sneezes, and I feel a little awkward sitting there in silence afterwards. It's worse when someone says "bless you" to me, and I have to decide whether to thank them for their inanity, or remain silent and seem like a jerk.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

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When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year.

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I don't know why, but that image made me laugh.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a real problem with saying "bless you" when someone sneezes, not because of atheism, but because it is stupid. I feel like an idiot telling someone bless you because of some ancient belief that the "evil spirits" are infecting them. But sometimes I'll be sitting in the office, or an elevator, and someone very close to me sneezes, and I feel a little awkward sitting there in silence afterwards. It's worse when someone says "bless you" to me, and I have to decide whether to thank them for their inanity, or remain silent and seem like a jerk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David tried unsuccessfully to introduce a much more useful reply to the sneeze:

"You are SOOOOO GOOD looking!"

I think this is much more social and functional, you attempt to ameliorate the sneezer's embarrassment with a compliment, and it opens up possibilities without seeming too forward, assuming it becomes commonplace.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus mentioned that this didn't catch on much to their surprise in one of her interviews in the Seinfeld DVD series.

Other more successful phrases and terms:

"spongeworthy"

"not that there's anything wrong with it"

"Hand"



Less popular but used:

"regifter"

"anti-dentite"



My favorite term that didn't catch on at all is,

"sidal nudity" in contradistinction to 'frontal' nudity.

I hope this helps. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

were you a goth kid?

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

"Young Sklansky" - what an idea for a TV show. If anyone actually makes it, I demand 50% of profits.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

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I'm just saying that is a bit harder for some (not me any more) if the silliness slaps you in the face.

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I think it's more likely that some people just don't have the implied odds. It's easy to go along with a silly social norm when you are an all around sociable person, and have a lot to gain from social interaction. If you're ugly, boring, or socially inept, a "what's up, dawg" here or there isn't gonna get you very far, so you just don't bother.

I might not be a Sklansky-like God of infinite logical powers, but I consider myself a fairly smart person, and I can safely say I've never felt uncomfortable offering high fives or doing/saying any of the other things you're alluding to. Human beings have emotions. Social norms develop, and they won't always be "logical." Interaction with other humans is important to me, as you admit it is to you as well. Some people just "get it" in a more natural way, without having to be convinced through experience. This is a skill.

Like Phil said, it might be comforting for you to think that this drawback is some sort of innate side effect of your genius, but it isn't. It's just a drawback. It just is what it is. You agree that social interaction is a worthwhile thing, so if being smart puts an innate handicap on your social IQ, then I guess that's just an innate drawback to being "smart." If a child were to master the piano or solve a difficult calculus problem at a young age without much effort you'd say the child is gifted. But when they're good at social interaction, you basically seem to be saying they're either dumb or worked really hard to overcome the smartness barrier. I think it's possible that a person is just naturally good at social situations.

There is a difference between having the ability to do math or think logically and not having the social aptitude to instinctively recognize when someone else doesn't care, or an "illogical" action might be the best way to meet our goals. When the wildebeest cross a stream filled with crocodiles, some of the pack may sense danger. It might seem logical to turn around. But the fact is, the wildebeest can't last long on their own. The strong instinct to stay with the pack makes the animal fit to survive, even if each and every action isn't logically justifiable in its own right.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I thought I'd get flamed more than I have for my post. Guess its because more people than I realized related to what I said. As for Phil and his social skills, allow me to postulate that his success was probably due in part to the fact that he was operating in an acedemic environment outside the US. I'd like to see how well he would do at Miami Dade.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I wonder if this has anything to do with how people form their beliefs and their belief systems. I would venture to guess that many people will follow a belief for a social reason even in the face of contradictory objective evidence. Perhaps some incorrectly held beliefs are more "desirable" than the truth.

Some people still believe that toilet water flushes in different directions in the north and south hemispheres! Alright, so that example doesn't support my contention in the least but I'm comfortable with that.

Maybe a better example would be a black person and his belief on whether OJ did it or not. That might be a good social pressure vs. evidence scenario. And frankly, it does irritate me to see people wash away that evidence for emotional reasons. Cop said the n-word and a glove didn't fit over another glove. Case closed.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grade 5!?

Man even when I was in grade 9 I didn't care what clothing I wore and I don't ever remember anyone giving me a hard time about it. Were you in a rich kid school or something? In grade 5 every pair of pants I wore had holes in the knees or they had patches because of holes. Sometimes patches with holes in them!

I really find this hard to beleive. You felt shame about your style in grade 5? There is no way the other kids that age gave you a hard time it must have been older kids saying that to you just in jest.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the younger parents in my neighborhood made fun of my wearing sweatpants at the bus stop in 3rd grade and some kid in 7th grade commented in jest about my khaki's. (Way more comfortable and much more usable pockets than jeans, or the jeans I had.)

Oh but I still never would've been caught dead with cuffs rofl. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Edit: I also never got the what's up or how's it going in (passing) conversation and am obviously wicked (math) smart.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

I have a fair amount of experience w/ Asperger's Syndrome. Back in college, I lived next to a guy in my dorm (suitemate, we shared a bathroom) who had a pretty severe case.

First off Asperger's != math genius and vice versa. There is obviously some overlap and it's a continuum, but real Asperger's is a very real, physical problem. Asperger's patients are simply missing all innate social skills that are built in to the vast majority of humans. There is a very large skill set of innate abilities most humans have with regard to social situations, that most are really never aware of until you meet someone lacking these skills.

Asperger's patients learn social skills like most of us learn math from a textbook: as a 100% logical experience. They learn to carry on "conversation" by algorithm. If someone says this, answer like this. If you meet someone for the first time, say this. This sounds like it could work, but in practice it does not. For a normal person there are a massive amount of factors that go into the normal social interaction of "making conversation": facial expression, vocal intonation, overall mood, body language, and much, much more. A continuous balance of all this information going back and forth leads to a constant, mostly unconscious adjustment by both parties in normal social interaction.

My point in this is that I don't believe an Asperger's patient could ever truly be as socially adept (or moreso) than an average person (regardless of how dedicated they were or if they decided to stop acting "silly"). They are simply not equipped. There are no books that teach underlying social skills. If there were, they would be impossibly long and detailed. The problem is that social interaction provides a constant opportunity for truly novel situations that have never occured before (even if the differences are subtle). It's impossible to be truly socially adept using the "algorithm" method - and those with Asperger's do not have any other way.

These are the conclusions I draw after spending a year in close contact with a guy with a serious case of Asperger's who had spent his entire life in the best treatment money can buy. Every single conversation with him was awkward, despite him having some idea what to do or say in most normal situations. He was a smart guy and great with numbers, but regardless of his logical intellect, there is no chance he'll be "taking over the world" - ever.