30-60 hand against top poster
 

live 30-60. i wasnt hero in this hand but a friend of mine was. my friend's image at the time would be weak tight. he's getting crap cards and when he does get something worth playing he's not seeing a lot of showdowns. justin a. is the villain. his image at this time would have to be tag. although running bad he is playing very few hands and pounding the pot when he does. also hero knows who justin a is and how good he plays.

so hero raises JJ utg+1, justin 3 bets out of the sb, and hero calls. heads up.

the flop is AA6 rainbow. justin bets, hero calls.

the turn is a 9. justin checks, hero checks.

the river is a 2. justin checks. hero ???

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Bet/fold. I've never played with justin, but is he capable of going for a c/r after whiffing once?

Also, do we like the turn check?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

I'd check. I doubt Justin is paying off with 88 here and I also severely doubt given the way the hand played out he's folding with QQ-JJ.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

"is he capable of going for a c/r after whiffing once?"

he's capable of anything any other expert lhe player is capable of.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Checks and waits on Justin.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checks and waits on Justin.

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Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Justin is only paying off with a smaller pair if he puts us on a really small pair (which we won't have raising up front) or KQ for the bluff (which we won't have because we called the flop, and a player with our image wouldn't call that flop without at least a pair).

So that means he probably won't call a bet with a worse hand. And he won't fold KK/QQ. So I check behind again.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Given the reads, I don't see how justin ever has you beat here. He's not just gonna sit back with KK/QQ and hope a weak/tight will vb thin in position on the river for him, right?

I don't know if that makes a bet correct here, but I'm just saying that justin has specifically TT here a lot, so a bet can't be all that bad.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

One reason I don't like checking behind this river is because I (according to the OP) have a weak-tight image and checking here would just seem to reinforce that.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Shawn, what's wrong with having a weak-tight image if it's incorrect? It's something we can exploit by making more aggressive plays counting on some serious fold equity to pad our EV.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Posting blind: If Im hero, I'm not betting the river.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shawn, what's wrong with having a weak-tight image if it's incorrect? It's something we can exploit by making more aggressive plays counting on some serious fold equity to pad our EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love having a weak-tight image. Theres no other image I would prefer to have.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

I bet this river and its correct for me to do so. Dunno about hero.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

FWIW my read on villain was that of tight ABC. I basically expected him to do some first level hand reading of my hand and act accordingly.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

I don't know Justin nor do I know how far down the ladder he'd 3 bet a pocket pair out of the small blind.

Against a typical thinking TAG, I'd put that range down to about 77. Hero would then be ahead of 77, 88 and TT and behind 99, QQ, KK. When you mix in the somewhat more remote possibility that he is holding an ace, the numbers point to a check behind.

of course, I am seeing players get more aggro with smaller pairs, so if you think he'd push down into the 44-66 type range -and- pay off, then bet, though he'd have to put you specifically on KQ or KJ to justify the payoff.

That being said, I think I nearly always bet here which appears to be a mistake.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

I think this is a pretty easy check. Any time I have KK or lower on a board with an Ace and I'm in a pot with a good player I feel like the checkraise from hell can come at any time and it can be a bluff just as easily as an Ace. Against a just decent player or bad player it's an easy bet, unless the bad player is very creative.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Joker --

Amen. I think people don't realize that when you change your plays to maintain a certain image, you're giving up immediate money. Here consensus is that Villain will call in this spot with (a) few worse hands or (b) no worse hands. So you're losing x% * $60 to contribute, probably insubstantially, to an image that might even be worse than the one you have. Crazy talk. I maintain my image pretty carefully and this is a play I'd almost never change for image-creation reasons.

--Nate

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet this river and its correct for me to do so. Dunno about hero.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Gonna have to put a bit of an explanation into this one because handranges don't seem to agree, given that you raised UTG+1.

Rob

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Mostly I don't think Justin would check a better hand to me twice on this board, so the preflop range doesn't matter nearly as much as the hands I can eliminate from the postflop range. Also he knows I might have a hand like KQ and peel that flop, so he is not going to always be able to put me on medium pocket pairs here. Finally I would need to call Justin's checkraise on the river for many of the same reasons.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mostly I don't think Justin would check a better hand to me twice on this board, so the preflop range doesn't matter nearly as much as the hands I can eliminate from the postflop range. Also he knows I might have a hand like KQ and peel that flop, so he is not going to always be able to put me on medium pocket pairs here. Finally I would need to call Justin's checkraise on the river for many of the same reasons.

-DeathDonkey

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Vs Justin you need to be ahead 66% here since you're paying off a checkraise. So you think he check-calls with TT, 88, 77, and... or you think he gets horribly out of line with a wide range of hands vs a UTG+1 raiser and then bluff checkraises the river?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

this cant really be discussed thoroughly on here. with this sort of action in this sort of hand between dd and i, one of us could have Q high and the other J high and one of us could bet the river FOR VALUE and the other person would autocall. does that help?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

I'm going to present very different thoughts from what I've read so far. I'm looking to learn and I welcome criticism if nobody likes this:

Why not play some poker w/ hero's hand? I don't know this Justin A fellow but what does he raise with from the SB against a player who has a weak/tight image that raises from UTG+1? SB's either got a big pair or something like AK. Maybe Tens or less but that doesn't feel right. What does it look like to SB when the initial raiser just calls? To me it would look like A-face, a medium pair or AA trying to trap (unless he has the AK himself).

So the SB bets into a flop of AA6. What is hero doing just calling? Hoping that SB has Tens? Looking to hit a 2 outer on the turn? Unless he's planning on raising the turn regardless of what comes he's either guessing he might be best or hoping to hit on the turn. I don't like guessing and I like hoping even worse. Why not play SB for a big pair and raise this flop and confirm SB's fear that UTG+1 has the A-face after all? If he gets re-raised then he's got a decision to make. Was SB testing him w/ his Kings or Queens or does he have an Ace? For me to make that decision I'd like to have played against the SB for a while to know how he plays. If I thought he'd re-raise w/ a big pair to see how I react I'd pop him again. If I get re-raised I fold. If it turned out that I cost myself a few small bets, so what? At least I don't come off like a wet noodle who just calls. That's got to be worth something in the future.

I'd either play it this way or just fold the Jacks. To me calling w/ them seems the worst choice by far.

The turn seems to be confirmation that SB has no Ace and is fearful of getting raised here. How does UTG+1 not bet in this spot?

On the river, once hero played the hand this weakly I can't see him betting at this late stage. He's likely to get called by a better hand or c/r by a weaker one that's decided hero is 'full of it' or is so weak that he'll fold a better one.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
this cant really be discussed thoroughly on here. with this sort of action in this sort of hand between dd and i, one of us could have Q high and the other J high and one of us could bet the river FOR VALUE and the other person would autocall. does that help?

[/ QUOTE ]

for those of you who think mike's exaggerating, you might be right, but only by a little bit.

when i play with deathdonkey he'll valuebet ace high to the point that others at the table accuse of us "just passing chips around".

most recently was a hand at 8/16 at ocean's 11 where chris limp reraised an ace from the small blind against my KJ, bet it the whole way, and then on the river thought out loud "will you call with king high? yeah you will" and bet it for value and i paid off like the fish i am. the guy to dd's right, who was trying to convince me that i should be ecstatic about my $600 "double up in an hour" win in that game got extremely pissed and basically accused of us collusion. this was despite the fact that everyone had folded before we even acted preflop.

live poker is fun.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
the guy to dd's right, who was trying to convince me that i should be ecstatic about my $600 "double up in an hour" win in that game got extremely pissed and basically accused of us collusion. this was despite the fact that everyone had folded before we even acted preflop.

live poker is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

The last time I played that game the two guys on my left got into the following conversation:

A: Hey I'm retarded, that's why I played Q5o for a raise and then called the KT3 flop.
B: Yeah me too, my cutoff for off suit Queens is at Q7o, they call that the computer hand.
A: The computer hand, why's that?
B: Because on computers it comes up more often.

Or I raise UTG with 99 bet all the way on J4662 and guy A calls me down all the way with 42o and tells me at showdown while I'm dragging the pot "I put you on a Jack".

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

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Or I raise UTG with 99 bet all the way on J4662 and guy A calls me down all the way with 42o and tells me at showdown while I'm dragging the pot "I put you on a Jack".

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I often find comments like this are so common that I find it hard not to get up and hug the lil suckers some time.

However when they call you down with KK v QQ and say "I thought you had aces" I often want to cry, but overall, it's still amazing.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Btw mike i think you got the board wrong. I don't remember the exact order, but the board was double paired aces and eights on the river, and you're right about the two aces on the flop. So it went someting like AA828. This is obviously important.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
this cant really be discussed thoroughly on here. with this sort of action in this sort of hand between dd and i, one of us could have Q high and the other J high and one of us could bet the river FOR VALUE and the other person would autocall. does that help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know that about DD and you; that's why I was telling DD over AIM that I think it helps a bit more if he puts himself in the actual question, where you asked what Hero should do, and now what hero should do if Hero is him.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Btw mike i think you got the board wrong. I don't remember the exact order, but the board was double paired aces and eights on the river, and you're right about the two aces on the flop. So it went someting like AA828. This is obviously important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that changes things quite a bit. Just checking since mike didn't say: it was 10-handed, right?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

you might be right justin but i remember it being a 6 and then a 9. i remember the 9 because i was thinking pocket 9s jsut go there. i might be wrong though my eyes are crap.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Results?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
..with this sort of action in this sort of hand between dd and i, one of us could have Q high and the other J high and one of us could bet the river FOR VALUE and the other person would autocall. does that help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please excuse the highjack.

You're saying one of you would raise with QJ (or worse) UTG +1 and the other would three bet from the SB with JT (or worse)? That's the only way you two can show down Q and J high here.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

no im saying one of us might raise w/ Q2s and the other might 3 bet w/ J7o and then a lot of bets would go in. that's just how we like to play the game.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had KK and he sneakily avoided my CR. What do you guys think of my turn and river play?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had KK and he sneakily avoided my CR. What do you guys think of my turn and river play?

[/ QUOTE ]

why arent u betting the river here? trying to induce a bluff?

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

Justin, I think you shouldn't make this play against people with an image of "weak tight" who are actually weak tight. Good play against me though.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

wow KK eh ? uber sneaky.

Re: 30-60 hand against top poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Results?

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I had KK and he sneakily avoided my CR. What do you guys think of my turn and river play?

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why arent u betting the river here? trying to induce a bluff?

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Trying to induce a value bet from his 99-QQ so that I could CR.

Or if he has a pair < 88 he can bluff and I gain an extra bet since he'd never call with a counterfeited hand.