Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($850)
UTG+1 ($5887)
MP1 ($4800)
MP2 ($5841)
Hero ($6319)
CO ($5000)
Button ($6016)
SB ($5321)
BB ($6645)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
[color=#666666]3 folds</font>, [color=#CC3333]MP2 raises to $200</font>, Hero calls $200, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, Button calls $200, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, [color=#CC3333]BB raises to $650</font>, MP2 calls $450, Hero calls $450, Button calls $450.

Flop: ($2625) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif [color=#0000FF](4 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]BB bets $850</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls $850, [color=#CC3333]Button raises to $2000</font>, BB calls $1150, Hero ????

The initial raiser is Chunmin who folds on the flop, the button is ilvdnfl and William Hill is the the guy who raises to 650.

Action is back to me.... What do I do?

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

I would assume that BB is a fish and has a big pair here, based on his line so far. So it comes down to button. Because you only called the small lead, he can put you on a weaker range including many pocket pair floats or perhaps a straight draw (or at least your hand is at the top of it). If his read on BB leads him to think he can raise him off aces here, then he could make this play with a lighter range including more hands that you beat and some semibluffs. However, if he is aware that BB is a fish with an overpair, he wouldnt try and make him fold it, he'd raise for value with his higher set (or 43, but 43 is unlikely because of your holdings). So go with your read on Button's read of BB, assuming BB actually is a fish and isnt a tricky solid player.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

I would push all-in.

There is already $2625 in the pot before the flop. BB is betting 1/3 pot, you are calling, and then Button is raising $1150 into a $4325 pot. It is very possible that no sets are out there.

The action in this hand is very strange, both before and on the flop. It's hard to put people on hands here and the pot is huge. I would push all-in.

Here's why I think the action is so strange:

Preflop:
Why is the BB reraising so small here?? There's been a raise and two calls, and then reopens the action by putting in a smallish raise. It seems weird. I think a poorly played AA is more likely than 88.

Then the flop action is very strange. PFR bets 1/3 pot, and you simply cold call. Why? I would put in a raise here, even if it was a smallish one.

Then Button puts in a tiny raise into a huge pot. Why? Can he be sure you didn't call with 56s? This is what makes me think he may not be as strong as raising a bettor and caller might indicate. The initial bet was small, and his raise is tiny.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

The button making a small raise into a huge pot suggests tremendous strength in my opinion. I am not sure if I could fold a set in this spot, but I would have but in a flop raise. Do you really think the button is making that raise with TT or JJ?

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume that BB is a fish and has a big pair here, based on his line so far. So it comes down to button. Because you only called the small lead, he can put you on a weaker range including many pocket pair floats or perhaps a straight draw (or at least your hand is at the top of it). If his read on BB leads him to think he can raise him off aces here, then he could make this play with a lighter range including more hands that you beat and some semibluffs. However, if he is aware that BB is a fish with an overpair, he wouldnt try and make him fold it, he'd raise for value with his higher set (or 43, but 43 is unlikely because of your holdings). So go with your read on Button's read of BB, assuming BB actually is a fish and isnt a tricky solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is somewhat similiar to what I am thinking. I don't think Button is bluffing though. It's such a small bet into a big pot that he may be raising with a hand like TT. He want to "see where he's at". He doesn't want to fold to the small flop bet, but he doesn't want to lose to a hand like AK (a possible holding for BB). I agree that he may be putting Hero on a pocket pair which is not a set. This smells like JJ, TT, 99 type hand which is scared to put big money in but isn't ready to surrender this pot to a tiny bet.

After BB calls the flop raise, it seems like he probably does have AA. As soon as BB calls and you overcall, Button is done with the hand unless he spikes a two outer so I wouldn't worry about getting anything more from him. He will know JJ/TT/99 etc. is dead after you overcall, then show aggression on any later street. You don't want the turn to go check/check/check, so you may as well push.

I can't fold bottom set with this action. Slow playing is only going to result in Hero not getting paid, getting drawn out on, or having scare cards freeze the action. Just push here.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
The button making a small raise into a huge pot suggests tremendous strength in my opinion. I am not sure if I could fold a set in this spot, but I would have but in a flop raise. Do you really think the button is making that raise with TT or JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anytime someone raises a bettor and cold caller, especially given the preflop action, it does suggest strength. It is definitely possible that he has a set, but I think he could also have just a pair. That's why if he does have a set, I pay him off.

f he has a set, I think he would usually raise more because of Hero's flop call, since 56s is possible, he will not get more out of a one pair hand anyway, and he doesn't expect anyone to fold a set. Again, he could very well have a set but I see a strong possibility that he has a hand like TT, which I why I can't fold bottom set in this big pot.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

i dont see how you can even really consider folding a set in a RR pot here. its entirely probable that they have JJ-AA type hands. folding here is criminal imo.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

Given the action I'm not folding a set on this flop. I go broke with that hand everytime. You're up against overpair too many times.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

Cmon does anybody really fold a set with 115bbs in reraised pot. I'm assuming u ran into 88 cuz u posted this hand, but obv get it all in

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

Dustin,

Isn't it quite obvious that William Hill has AA/KK? Isn't it quite obvious that ilvndnfl knows that William has AA/KK? So therefore, what is he milk reraising with? Has to be something that has AA/KK beat? This isnt just I have a set shove.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dustin,

Isn't it quite obvious that William Hill has AA/KK? Isn't it quite obvious that ilvndnfl knows that William has AA/KK? So therefore, what is he milk reraising with? Has to be something that has AA/KK beat? This isnt just I have a set shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it obvious that William Hill has AA? He reraised small preflop and then bet 1/3 pot (ignore the fact that he called the raise, because you wouldn't have that info yet). It is possible the Button highly suspected a hand like AA but wasn't sure and wasn't ready to just lay down to a tiny bet in this big pot.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

There is a raise to 200, and 2 callers of that 200. What would he be raising to 650 w/ ? It's pretty clear it's AA/KK.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

just get it all in here...if you are going to make that call preflop with 33 and then fold on a 843 board then u need to reconsider your preflop call...hopefully AA pays you off big here

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a raise to 200, and 2 callers of that 200. What would he be raising to 650 w/ ? It's pretty clear it's AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're looking at this a little differently. If he is bad enough to only pop it to 650 with AA here, then he is definitely bad enough to have AK, KK or 88. His reraise is way too small.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a raise to 200, and 2 callers of that 200. What would he be raising to 650 w/ ? It's pretty clear it's AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]
Although I agree with you, I never really understand why they are stupid enough to do this with AA but not stupid enough to do this with, say T7o, which is pretty much just as good....

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

1- there is no value in raising the flop

2- button has to be very strong most of the time here, and i think you should consider folding, but i probably never would because of all the crazy/silly/stupid [censored] that happens in aggro 25/50 games. button might have TTish type hands b/c for some of the reasons Post-Oak gives, but just because he MIGHT doesn't mean he always will, or even will a high-medium frequency of the time he gets to the flop with those same TT-ish type hands like this. which is why you should consider folding... but like someone said, the pot is already so [censored] big.

3- PEOPLE WITH LOW POST COUNTS WHO DO NOT PLAY IN THESE GAMES - NO ONE [censored] CARES WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. DO YOU THINK YOUR ADVICE IS USEFUL?? YOU CANT EVEN BEAT 1/2 NL SO WHY DO YOU THINK WE CARE WHAT YOU WOULD DO IN THIS SPOT? EITHER ASK HELPFUL QUESTIONS TO FOSTER DISCUSSION OR STICK TO LURKING AND POSTING IN THE STRATEGY FORUMS WHERE YOUR ADVICE WILL BE HELPFUL.

god damn it... like, for instance, "if you are going to make that call preflop with 33 and then fold on a 843 board reconsider your preflop call..." That's just so [censored] stupid.

btw, i'm not bringing the hateorade to ppl with low post counts just because they "havent been on 2+2 for awhile." i couldn't care less about your post count. but if you don't play HSNL, which i'm fairly certain most of you don't, stop [censored] trainwrecking the threads with your useless advice.

i obviously need to get high now

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

Yeah I mean I think folding is the play here. BB has AA absolutely without a doubt - and I don't think I've ever seen TT here from the button ever in a million years. If you really think he can have TT or something then calling and folding to his turn push seems okay(but i'm folding the flop).

James

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I mean I think folding is the play here. BB has AA absolutely without a doubt - and I don't think I've ever seen TT here from the button ever in a million years. If you really think he can have TT or something then calling and folding to his turn push seems okay(but i'm folding the flop).

James

[/ QUOTE ]
Terrible read. BB had KK. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I mean I think folding is the play here. BB has AA absolutely without a doubt - and I don't think I've ever seen TT here from the button ever in a million years. If you really think he can have TT or something then calling and folding to his turn push seems okay(but i'm folding the flop).

James

[/ QUOTE ]
Terrible read. BB had KK. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

To players like the BB, AA is the same as KK. So for those of you saying get it in with the 33, I assume you love BB's play of continuing with aces here, since hero's hand looks 'like a float or a small pp, and button's hand looks like TT or JJ'. I guess we're just doomed to always go broke with aces even on raggy uncoordinated boards in multiway pots?

James

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
So for those of you saying get it in with the 33, I assume you love BB's play of continuing with aces here, since hero's hand looks 'like a float or a small pp, and button's hand looks like TT or JJ'. I guess we're just doomed to always go broke with aces even on raggy uncoordinated boards in multiway pots?

James

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

You've made some really horrible, illogical assumptions here. Let's not hijack the thread with strawmen arguments.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So for those of you saying get it in with the 33, I assume you love BB's play of continuing with aces here, since hero's hand looks 'like a float or a small pp, and button's hand looks like TT or JJ'. I guess we're just doomed to always go broke with aces even on raggy uncoordinated boards in multiway pots?

James

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

You've made some really horrible, illogical assumptions here. Let's not hijack the thread with strawmen arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

putting the button on TT or JJ is idiotic. sorry, u post stuff like that, expect smart posters to rip you up.

he has air or a bigger set every time. also williamhill is not the type to get away from hands and ilvdnfl is a tight smart player.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
3- PEOPLE WITH LOW POST COUNTS WHO DO NOT PLAY IN THESE GAMES - NO ONE [censored] CARES WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. DO YOU THINK YOUR ADVICE IS USEFUL?? YOU CANT EVEN BEAT 1/2 NL SO WHY DO YOU THINK WE CARE WHAT YOU WOULD DO IN THIS SPOT? EITHER ASK HELPFUL QUESTIONS TO FOSTER DISCUSSION OR STICK TO LURKING AND POSTING IN THE STRATEGY FORUMS WHERE YOUR ADVICE WILL BE HELPFUL.

god damn it... like, for instance, "if you are going to make that call preflop with 33 and then fold on a 843 board reconsider your preflop call..." That's just so [censored] stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen brother

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
putting the button on TT or JJ is idiotic.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, if you say so. We'll just take your word for it since you won't explain.

The only thing I am confused about is why you quoted a straw man argument which had nothing to do with the actual hand.

[ QUOTE ]

he has air or a bigger set every time.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's just stupid, given the action and bet sizes. I am assuming you think he will always either fold or call with a hand like JJ. We'll never know because you won't tell us, nor give any "reasoning".

[ QUOTE ]

also williamhill is not the type to get away from hands and ilvdnfl is a tight smart player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, that's good to know (no sarcasm). It sounds like OP (Hero) doesn't really know these guys though, so this should really just be an aside.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

button on TT/JJ!
hilarious!

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
button on TT/JJ!
hilarious!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another "great player" who can't or won't explain his reasoning.

And people wonder why this forum sucks?

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So for those of you saying get it in with the 33, I assume you love BB's play of continuing with aces here, since hero's hand looks 'like a float or a small pp, and button's hand looks like TT or JJ'. I guess we're just doomed to always go broke with aces even on raggy uncoordinated boards in multiway pots?

James

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

You've made some really horrible, illogical assumptions here. Let's not hijack the thread with strawmen arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, strawmen arguments like your fantasy land where the thinking, smart button COULD have TT trying to figure out where he is at, putting the bb on AK and the floater on 99, 77, 66, 55, and 22? Or where the button decides it's min-raising time with 56s to potentially charge himself the absolute max closing the action with 2 guys who obviously like their hands(giving him great implied odds if he spikes)? There is a small, small possibility button is on air here if our hero has a brutally bad image and is seen as the type who could come along with absolute trash here AND the bb is the type that would lead AK into this big field here after raising pretty small with it preflop. You also somehow give the button a range that does not beat AA(because if it did, it would logically beat our hand as well) - so who has the strawman argument again?

James

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

Lol, strawmen arguments like your fantasy land where the thinking, smart button


[/ QUOTE ]

You're first obvious mistake. Where in the OP does it say anything about the button being a thinking, smart player? All it says is his screen name. Given that there is no description, he is most likely an unknown to the OP.

[ QUOTE ]

COULD have TT trying to figure out where he is at, putting the bb on AK and the floater on 99, 77, 66, 55, and 22?


[/ QUOTE ]

The key for me is the bet sizes. Had the BB fired $2K, been called, then been raised, then obviously I am not gonna think an unknown could have a TT in this spot. However, $850 was bet into a $2650 pot. The raise of this tiny bet was basically a min-raise. This muddies the water a bit. What should Button do with JJ here? Explain to me your thinking.

[ QUOTE ]

Or where the button decides it's min-raising time with 56s to potentially charge himself the absolute max closing the action with 2 guys who obviously like their hands(giving him great implied odds if he spikes)?


[/ QUOTE ]

They obviously like their hand because one guy bet $850 into a $2650 pot? I'm not so sure how much he likes his hand. The caller is a little more troubling, but it's not like he has shown massive strength calling a 1/3 pot bet here.

[ QUOTE ]

There is a small, small possibility button is on air here if our hero has a brutally bad image and is seen as the type who could come along with absolute trash here AND the bb is the type that would lead AK into this big field here after raising pretty small with it preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let's imagine he does have AK. You are clearly saying that JJ will not raise this tiny bet. This means he will call. Calling and checking the turn actually gives AK a good chance to win the pot. Or maybe you think he would just fold? Then it's not a bad bet either. Honestly, try to think through your seemingly arbitrary assumptions. If you disagree that he could have JJ here, that's fine. Just tell us WHY. You might actually learn something when you realize how stupid it is to believe he could have air here, but not JJ.

[ QUOTE ]

so who has the strawman argument again?


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I'm pretty sure you don't even know what a strawman argument is.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
button on TT/JJ!
hilarious!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another "great player" who can't or won't explain his reasoning.

And people wonder why this forum sucks?

[/ QUOTE ]

do you play in this game? post your screenname if so. thanks

i wont explain my reasoning cause i dont want to give away too much. takes a real pro to know that button will never have TT/JJ and i cant jeopardize my edge

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you play in this game? post your screenname if so. thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you pretty much summarize everything that is wrong with this forum.

I don't play in that game. If I did, I would never give you my screen name you [censored] moron.

25/50 is the highest I have played online. 25/50 is the highest I have played live also. Does this help? I can't imagine it does...

Anyway, thanks for all of the great input. You're a real asset to the forum.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

im not gonna bother to read the rest of your poor analysis in the rest of your thread but ilvdnfl will never have TT or JJ here. im not gonna explain why because it is very obvious that he wont have that. he's not an idiot.

the bottom line in this hand is OP can either believe ilvdnfl and fold, or put the rest in and hope hes got a bluff, maybe a straight draw.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
im not gonna bother to read the rest of your poor analysis


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, yeah that's what I figured.

[ QUOTE ]

ilvdnfl will never have TT or JJ here. im not gonna explain why because it is very obvious that he wont have that. he's not an idiot.


[/ QUOTE ]

But he might have air? He can't minraise a 1/3 pot bet here with JJ, but he might do it with air? That's funny.

You never did explain what he does with JJ here. Does just call? Does he fold? Oh well, I'm sure you haven't even put much thought into yet. You clowns really seem to make it up as you go along.

[ QUOTE ]

the bottom line in this hand is OP can either believe ilvdnfl and fold, or put the rest in and hope hes got a bluff, maybe a straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you say a straight draw is possible? James282, the "smart player" who you seemed to think ripped apart my analysis earlier says that's not possible here.

Honestly, I can see why you guys don't ever write down your reasoning. It's just a confused hodge podge of ridiculous assumptions, and on some level you must realize that you will have to admit the obvious inconsistencies in your "logic".

And you can't even answer whether OP should fold or not. Thanks for all the great input Prev.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

confused hodgepodge of ridiculous assumptions? you're assuming that every time he even HAS TT/JJ here he will raise it... who's confused?

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're assuming that every time he even HAS TT/JJ here he will raise it... who's confused?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'm not.

I never said that, and never gave you any reason to assume that I believed that.

[ QUOTE ]

who's confused?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we got another name to add to the list.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

i had a whole post typed out, then decided i don't want to make you any better. i think our arguments are made, anyway.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
i had a whole post typed out, then decided i don't want to make you any better.

[/ QUOTE ]



Yeah, yeah that's what I figured.

Honestly, I can see why you guys don't ever write down your reasoning. It's just a confused hodge podge of ridiculous assumptions, and on some level you must realize that you will have to admit the obvious inconsistencies in your "logic".

Thanks for all the great input (insert clueless HSNL poster name). You're a real asset to the forum.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

i prob dont fold cuz i suck, but i feel like ur only ever beating air(is this possible from villain??), oesd,and maybe rarely 84s (can he call here preflop after 2/3 cold callers? maybe i dunno). so unless ur not telling us soemthing else about the reraiser, seems like ur beat quite often. i do think its silly that a lot of posters are saying u cant fold for 100-120 bb in a RR pot here blah blah. I mean given the action, wat do u put button on thats not the two higher sets? I don't feel like this is one of those situations where just b/c its an action pot preflop we have to get it in w bottom set.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

post oak, im not a regular HSNL poster, and its obvious to me that krantz, greg james etc. are right in this spot. its pretty unlikely for button to have 1010/JJ here. Its pretty suicidal honestly unless we dont know somethin about the way the game was being played. the bottom line is if u dont realize soemthing this simplistic u shouldnt be posting, let alone arguing with them. sure they arent always right, but they are good HSNL players and their advice is useful most the time

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
post oak, im not a regular HSNL poster, and its obvious to me that krantz, greg james etc. are right in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right; he probably has 48s, one of the possible hands you cite in your previous post.

[ QUOTE ]

its pretty unlikely for button to have 1010/JJ here. Its pretty suicidal honestly unless we dont know somethin about the way the game was being played.


[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to say that you think Button has a set almost always. I mean, you label it "suicidal" to continue with the hand. Now this is not consistent with what you wrote in your previous post, but that's hardly surprising to me.

[ QUOTE ]

the bottom line is if u dont realize soemthing this simplistic u shouldnt be posting, let alone arguing with them. sure they arent always right, but they are good HSNL players and their advice is useful most the time

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you know if they are good? Given what you wrote, you don't really seem to know all that much about poker. I mean you are all over the board.

Maybe he has 48s! Oh wait, he definitely has a set, it would be suicidal to raise here! And of course you "probably don't fold".

You're posting style is the kind of unfocused babbling that I see a lot here. Also typical is how you make strong assertions, but don't explain them, simply using excuses like "you should already know this". I normally ask posters to explain themselves in these situations, but in your case I think I will pass. You're thinking is just way too muddled.

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

ilvdnl is pretty laggy sometimes, but also very very good. You guys are making some good theoretical arguments but I still dont believe any of u are folding

Re: Bottom set on on a very dry board, 4 players to the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Lol, strawmen arguments like your fantasy land where the thinking, smart button


[/ QUOTE ]

You're first obvious mistake. Where in the OP does it say anything about the button being a thinking, smart player? All it says is his screen name. Given that there is no description, he is most likely an unknown to the OP.

[ QUOTE ]

COULD have TT trying to figure out where he is at, putting the bb on AK and the floater on 99, 77, 66, 55, and 22?


[/ QUOTE ]

The key for me is the bet sizes. Had the BB fired $2K, been called, then been raised, then obviously I am not gonna think an unknown could have a TT in this spot. However, $850 was bet into a $2650 pot. The raise of this tiny bet was basically a min-raise. This muddies the water a bit. What should Button do with JJ here? Explain to me your thinking.

[ QUOTE ]

Or where the button decides it's min-raising time with 56s to potentially charge himself the absolute max closing the action with 2 guys who obviously like their hands(giving him great implied odds if he spikes)?


[/ QUOTE ]

They obviously like their hand because one guy bet $850 into a $2650 pot? I'm not so sure how much he likes his hand. The caller is a little more troubling, but it's not like he has shown massive strength calling a 1/3 pot bet here.

[ QUOTE ]

There is a small, small possibility button is on air here if our hero has a brutally bad image and is seen as the type who could come along with absolute trash here AND the bb is the type that would lead AK into this big field here after raising pretty small with it preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let's imagine he does have AK. You are clearly saying that JJ will not raise this tiny bet. This means he will call. Calling and checking the turn actually gives AK a good chance to win the pot. Or maybe you think he would just fold? Then it's not a bad bet either. Honestly, try to think through your seemingly arbitrary assumptions. If you disagree that he could have JJ here, that's fine. Just tell us WHY. You might actually learn something when you realize how stupid it is to believe he could have air here, but not JJ.

[ QUOTE ]

so who has the strawman argument again?


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I'm pretty sure you don't even know what a strawman argument is.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense dude, you have no clue what you are talking about here. You work yourself in circles throwing out hand possibilities instead of weighted ranges. Also - I don't need the OP to describe the player since I've played a ton with him and know how he plays. That's why the OP included the guy's name - so we could comment based on how this player plays and not some random unknown.

[ QUOTE ]
You might actually learn something when you realize how stupid it is to believe he could have air here, but not JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think air is a long shot that he will have almost never. I think JJ is far less likely than that given the action. You ask me to tell you WHY and I will - JJ will never min raise the flop like this. If he somehow thinks there is a chance is good after the flop action he will call - many people will fold JJ in this spot when a relatively predictable player leads into a big field and gets a caller on the driest board of all time. Show me a hand where a good player plays JJ like this and I will stand corrected, until then stop offering advice based on hypothetical hand ranges that aren't based in reality.

James