A9s multiway with RIO
 

Everyone in this hand is loose, except the second cold-caller, who's unknown. A few of the loose guys are slightly aggressive, and a few of them are passive. The guy that bet the flop, though, is 18/3/not-aggro (133 hands).

I kinda felt like folding the flop, but that's maybe just a little too weak.

I was intending to check through the river unless it was a spade, ace, or 9.

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Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (17.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Raise flop. Bet turn when checked to.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I would definately be raising this flop and take things from there.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I limp preflop, raise the flop. As played, I like the turn raise, although the board gets a bit straighty here. The river card sucks.

I really don't see how you can fold TPTK (though marginal) and a BDFD in a pot that big, especially when the others are bad.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I think you played this fine.

I'm curious about a flop raise here. It seems like it would be an error to me because this is 6-ways and you already know the people behind you have no problem callin 2 bets cold with X. At best you'll get 1 or 2 to fold but your TPTK isn't going to be good all that frequently here, especially with that semi-coordinated board.

How do we feel about folding the flop? sure, it's a bit weak to fold TPTK, but your pair isn't huge and it's a 6-way pot...might a fold be okay here, or is the pot too big to justify that? Or do we stay here because we do in fact think your TPTK is going to hold up 6-ways until the river?

i like the turn raise.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda felt like folding the flop, but that's maybe just a little too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little?!?!? You should be raising and hopefully 3betting that!

Turn semi-bluff raise is cool, though I'd prefer a somewhat more raggedy board for that. River check seems reasonable.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Marty,

let's try that again: I have top pair top kicker. My hand figures to be best now, but not so anymore if I let villains draw cheaply as it is a weak TP and many cards can hurt me. Since I reason to have the best hand now, I ... do what?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I limp preflop, raise the flop. As played, I like the turn raise, although the board gets a bit straighty here. The river card sucks.

I really don't see how you can fold TPTK (though marginal) and a BDFD in a pot that big, especially when the others are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Yeah, I like limping PF in this hand.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I kinda felt like folding the flop, but that's maybe just a little too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little?!?!? You should be raising and hopefully 3betting that!

Turn semi-bluff raise is cool, though I'd prefer a somewhat more raggedy board for that. River check seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand, you want me to three-bet the flop, but call the turn?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Ok, just to give you guys an idea about just how atrocious folding would be here:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

7,387,691,600 games 287.578 secs 25,689,348 games/sec

Board: 4s 5c 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.033% 45.70% 02.33% 3376120342 172405090.00 { As9s }
Hand 1: 13.309% 12.04% 01.27% 889481968 93770805.00 { 77-66, A9s-A5s, KTs-K8s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, ATo-A8o, KTo-K9o, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 19.434% 18.49% 00.94% 1366182238 69555389.33 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Hand 3: 19.224% 18.28% 00.94% 1350677100 69498667.67 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }


Now, obv. you have to adjust that to the number of players etc. (also, hand 2 and 3 have all their premiums in their range - which is probably too generous), but you get the idea.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I kinda felt like folding the flop, but that's maybe just a little too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little?!?!? You should be raising and hopefully 3betting that!

Turn semi-bluff raise is cool, though I'd prefer a somewhat more raggedy board for that. River check seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand, you want me to three-bet the flop, but call the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the value of your hand has obv. decreased with the added str8 potential that 7 has brought. Plus, of course, the fact that you're still 6ways.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

All,

what about a b/f on the river? Is 9x/8x calling often enough?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Marty,

let's try that again: I have top pair top kicker. My hand figures to be best now, but not so anymore if I let villains draw cheaply as it is a weak TP and many cards can hurt me. Since I reason to have the best hand now, I ... do what?


[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so my first reaction was 'easy raise with TPTK'. But I'm not convinced it's that simple.

First off, this is a 6-way pot and i'm not convinced our weak TPTK is ahead. The flop is semi-coordinated so stupidly cold-called SCs could have been rewarded, it could also have made someone's set if they coldcalled with weak-ish PPs. We're quite possibly behind now and we're certainly going to be lucky to stand up all the way to the river. Virtually any club or T+ is a bad card. would also like to not see a 6 or a 7 unless they're spades.

So my immediate reaction and the action you suggest is to exploit our (at best small) edge. By raising the flop we can knock players off GS and BD draws, bottom pairs, etc, and in so doing raise (possibly) for value and to prevent suck-outs.

But I'm not convinced this works. First, the pot is 14.5SB, so if hero raises he's offering 15.5:2 or 7.75:1. Ignoring the specific situation for the time being, in a 6-way pot if I have a GS i'm most certainly going to call 8:1 due to implied odds. In this situation, i'd be a bit hesitatnt due to the FD, but i'd still consider it. So a raise to knock GSs prolly aint going to work here. It might not even work against people who only hold OCs with redraws, at least if they have, say, KxTc. I can't see a raise knocking all 3 coldcallers out. Maybe 1-2 which still leaves us in a 4-5 way pot with a weak TPTK and LOADS of scary cards which could come.

Also, we're not *sure* the coldcallers have air. If we raise and get 3banged, do we then fold?

I guess i'm not convinced about the raise because it a) isn't really for value cos we're quite possibly behind in this 6-way pot and b) even if we get 1-2 people to fold, our TPTK is still losing to loads of cards on the turn. It may make people with bottom pair or BDFD fold, but it's not going to make much a difference to the GS draw-ers.

So that's my reasoning for suggesting we consider a fold. In retrospect, a call is probably the worst option.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I don't know how somebody could make 8,000 posts and not raise this flop.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

This hand seems classicly the; Vunerable made hand, large pot, position on the aggressor with an opportunity to make it two to go to any hand behind you that is drawing - type hand.

i.e raise the flop.

Your favourite topic marty!

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how somebody could make 8,000 posts and not raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think Dave's main problem here is that the flop bettor is 18/3/not-aggro. What does a tight-passive player bet the flop into the preflop raiser with? A set, 2 pair (though unlikely given his vpip of 18), and maybe a flush draw come to my mind. Maybe TP2K, hoping the pf-raiser has wiffed overs.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand seems classicly the; Vunerable made hand, large pot, position on the aggressor with an opportunity to make it two to go to any hand behind you that is drawing - type hand.

i.e raise the flop.

Your favourite topic marty!

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate poker.


but it's ever so preferable to trying to teach myself partial fraction integration.

*sigh*

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how somebody could make 8,000 posts and not raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

touché, sir! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Marty, most of that is MUBS with trying-to-talk-yourself-into-a-weak-tight-attitude mixed in. Sure, everybody could have AA or 44 or 99. You're probably right - a raise doesn't knock out most draws. So go with the second opiton. Value. You're putting in 2SB, two freakin' small bets, to win 12 immediately and a pot of - what was it? 17sb? - total!!!!!!!!! Do you realize how rarely that has to work for you to be profitable?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hate poker.

but it's ever so preferable to trying to teach myself partial fraction integration.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find that a lot easier to master than poker.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how somebody could make 8,000 posts and not raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think Dave's main problem here is that the flop bettor is 18/3/not-aggro. What does a tight-passive player bet the flop into the preflop raiser with? A set, 2 pair (though unlikely given his vpip of 18), and maybe a flush draw come to my mind. Maybe TP2K, hoping the pf-raiser has wiffed overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did he raise the turn then?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

A-mann - has a point. If the flop bettor had also shown any aggression pre flop then I think it is a clear raise but raising is going to make it 7:1 to call and you are not going to fold any flush draws for that, and then they would likely still have correct odds to call on the turn as well.

The more I think about it the more I like a call on the flop and then raise the turn and make it 5:1 for them to call on the turn.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

moral for marty : stop over thinking these things.

yeh, this is my first run through these kinds of maths. i'm a psychologist, not an engineer. it's going okay, but it's not easy, esp when i'm just learning from a book.

it's only going to get tougher too.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I raise the flop to try force MP1 &amp; 2 &amp; BB out behind us. Forcing villains out improves our winning chances.

Assuming this works we can then take a free card on the turn if its offered or semi bluff bet a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

22 - That was my thinking also but what hands are you going to force out? - flush draws will still have odds to call and then the pot will be large enough that they have odds on the turn also

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
A-mann - has a point. If the flop bettor had also shown any aggression pre flop then I think it is a clear raise but raising is going to make it 7:1 to call and you are not going to fold any flush draws for that, and then they would likely still have correct odds to call on the turn as well.

The more I think about it the more I like a call on the flop and then raise the turn and make it 5:1 for them to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is still plenty for any FD, and ok for any OESD (which they'll likely have improved to with the 7), while you missed your chance to get value with a hand, that a) is a serious favourite on the flop and b) has little ways to improve later on.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Yeah fair point. I am flip-flopping all over the place on this one.

My main concern would be the tight passive betting in to us. I would say we are definitely behind on the flop.

I remember that SSHE has a near similar hand where Hero holds 9To and recommends folding if a tight/passive bets in to us, but I agree I think the A and the BDFD improve that holding sufficiently to play on.

How would you play Fret when the Turn comes 7h and the tight-passive continues to bet in to us?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I think I raise this flop for two reasons:

First, TPTK, with a backdoor nut flush draw has a lot of value.

Second, YOU were the preflop raiser, and when all baby flops come, and someone bets into you, it is a good idea to defend with more hands than premium pairs.

The benefit of getting heads up woudl be great, and if it is RR back to you, you are defining his hand when it is cheap, and you have a better idea of what you might need to beat him.

Todd

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah fair point. I am flip-flopping all over the place on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This + avatar = gold.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Limp preflop, but raising can't be that bad since ATs is pretty much an auto-raise.

I would tend to raise on the flop (never folding here for one bet!) but this could be an example of "wait for a safe turn card to raise"...the problem with that being you don't know what's "safe" and you have a bunch of weak draws that could probably fold for 2 bets on the flop.

River check behind is good, with 4 players in and ugly board.

RIO applies more when the future bets are bigger proportional to the pot and your hand is more marginal.
(e.g. T2o in the BB on a T-9-5 two-suited board with 4 SB in the pot)

Here you have TPTK and BDFD in a large pot. Hence, play aggressively and don't fold unless it's clear you're beat.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would tend to raise on the flop (never folding here for one bet!) but this could be an example of "wait for a safe turn card to raise"

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't the situation where someone bets, the whole table calls and you are last to act. I would just call there, since our edge is prolly not too big and noone will fold to a raise.

Here, we can face 3 players with 2 cold on the flop, thus limiting the field. Good but vulnerable hand, big pot -&gt; I try to increase my equity by folding out others.

As a bonus, we get a lot of information if UTG 3-bets. In that case we can release the hand on the turn when the FD doesn't come.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
How would you play Fret when the Turn comes 7h and the tight-passive continues to bet in to us?

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Call down. What else? We can't raise and I probably couldn't fold either. Situation changes, of course if someone else decides to join the fun and raises.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
22 - That was my thinking also but what hands are you going to force out? - flush draws will still have odds to call and then the pot will be large enough that they have odds on the turn also

[/ QUOTE ]
Hands like KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT etc. that might have weak Back door straight draws but have over cards to beat us should a K, Q, J or T come.
Yes flush draws still have odds to draw but if they call 2 cold at least you'll be able to narrow their range somewhat.

Play aggressively in large pots if it will improve your winning chances.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would you play Fret when the Turn comes 7h and the tight-passive continues to bet in to us?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call down. What else? We can't raise and I probably couldn't fold either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would it not depend on what range you put him on? If you put him on a set then you are drawing dead. If he has two pair then it is a profitable call. So if you assume its equally likely he has a set as having two pair then its profitable but if you assume 60/40 set/2-pair then it isnt profitable and should be a fold?

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

Yes, but just because he bet the flop and didn't think too much of my raise, I would never put him on a set. He might just do this w J9s, really. So the flop bettor was 18/3/not-aggro BIG DEAL! I could see most draws and just about any pair donk this flop.

I want to showdown, I don't really think I have nearly enough information to fold but I don't like my hand enough to try anything fancy anymore. So I call down.

Actually, anyone who has a made straight or a set will most likely c/r me on the turn. A donk here indicates weakness, imho.

But, tbh, it's so much crystal-balling that it's not nearly worth the time. He could donk the flop with just about anything and he could donk the turn with quite a few improved draws that I beat. I really don't have any indication that I'm terribly behind, so I have to call to the river in any case and am probably not folding for one bet in what will be a massive pot.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm a psychologist, not an engineer.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/gallery.../tosmccoy1.jpg

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

With that card on the turn, I'm going to guess that my equity was approximately the same equity as it was on the flop.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

I'll usually limp this pre-flop. I have no moral objection to raising (if you have reason to believe a lot of people are coming along and can play well if an A flops)

Raise the flop. Waiting for the turn will let you see a safe card, but the odds you will be offering won't be much worse for your opponents.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

i usually limp preflop.

i like waiting for the turn to raise. no one is folding the flop and a gazillion hands are correct to call with as few as 4 outs for 2sb AND another million cards can come that we don't want to see and thus may be happy we didn't put the extra action in.

the problem i would be worried about is, given his description, the flop bettor may get scared if a paint card or other scarecard comes and then check leaving us in a semi-screwed position on the turn, plus we lost value on the flop. if he doesn't get scared by paint it often means we are behind with our one pair hand.

still, given the pot size and the relative vulnerabililty of our 9s it's a chance i'm willing to take because raising the flop usually results in at least the turn and often the river becoming a shootout(correctly)for any reasonable and a fair amount of unreasonable hands. on the turn we can better eliminate some of the riffraff we otherwise couldn't do with a flop raise. i feel like i stumbled/bumbled through this so i'm sorry if it makes little sense.

on the river, i think i'm valuebetting. it's a precarious situation if raised, but the pot's big so lots of crap hands like Ahigh or a draw that backed into a pair will call.

Re: A9s multiway with RIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm a psychologist, not an engineer.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/gallery.../tosmccoy1.jpg

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bozlax for mod!

lovin' it.