stud 8 - prof backwards
 

tried something new and was kamikaze for sure.

3-handed late night after main game broke. we are playing HE mix and both these guys are hold'em players. needless to say, they find themselves in marginal spots in the other games and play marginal holdings.

me: (97)9
seat 1: xx 5d
seat 2: xx 4d

seat two brings in/complete. i call, seat 1 calls.

4th st:
me: (97)9c Jd
seat 1: xx 5d Tc
seat 2: xx 4d 5s

check, check, bet, call, call.

5th street:

me: (97)9c Jd Kh
seat 1: xx 5d Tc 8d
seat 2: xx 4d 5s 8h

check, check, seat 2 bets, and then i c/r (?), seat 1 folds. i get 3 bet and i call.

sixth. he cathces high, i brick. i check/call.

seventh. i brick. he bets, i call.




ok, on third i felt confident my split nines were the best high hand. I would toss this ring game but it's 3 handed and these guys don't play stud 8 at all.

fourth: this street suprised me. I thought my call would force out seat 1 when his low busted out. But when he called with a 5 and a J against a better low draw and a better high board, i put him on a pair.

Fifth, I get creative with a my high-only board. seat 1 is sharing eights with seat 2. so it's unlikely that the eight gave him two pair. I have seat 1's board beat readily for high but in order for me to knock him out, i'll have to put in at least two bets.

so i did. as a consolation price, my two pair card are live.

sixth and seventh are trivial and i'll call down here 100% of the time unimproved once i've made that move on fifth.


short-handed brings out a lot of marginal spots and places to get creative. i think fifth street is counterintuitive in some ways (definitely not ABC) but was wondering if winning players would agree with my play here.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

I'm not quite comfortable enough with shorthanded play to say whether or not you should be playing (97)9 for a full bet, but I'd probably fold it. I would definitely fold fifth, however. A good chunk of the time, he's going to have Nines beaten. Another good chunk of the time he's going to be free-rolling on you. I don't think that the pot's big enough to justify calling three bets basically hoping for a split.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

First of all you should definitely reraise on 3rd to try to get it heads up.

For some reason the received wisdom on twoplustwo.com (not sure if this is true of the actual 2+2 books) is heavily biased against overpairs in stud 8. Having an overpair in stud 8 is generally good spot.

To suggest folding is just weak, sorry Andy.

Fourth is a little interesting with the pot unusually small. If you had reraised on 3rd and still gotten 3 way action you would lead out on 4th and jam if the guy in the middle insists on calling.

As played I think just calling on 4th is really not bad, because as you note the one guy really should not be overcalling much of the time anyway, and also given the pot size and the somewhat dangerous board for the 54 guy, you may be getting away from your hand on 5th.

However as a standard play you should just lead out on 4th and the middle guy will fold a lot of hands outright and almost all of them to a jam, if he has a clue.

5th street is confusing as played up to this point. I think I would lead out and call a raise rather than c-rz. The guy in the middle should definitely be folding any high that doesn't beat 99 when you lead out.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]
5th street is confusing as played up to this point. I think I would lead out and call a raise rather than c-rz. The guy in the middle should definitely be folding any high that doesn't beat 99 when you lead out.

[/ QUOTE ]

this would save me a bet.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]

For some reason the received wisdom on twoplustwo.com (not sure if this is true of the actual 2+2 books) is heavily biased against overpairs in stud 8. Having an overpair in stud 8 is generally good spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've never gotten that impression. The "received wisdom" is that pairs play badly in multiway spots. I think that the 2+2 book POV is that pairs play well in heads up pots against any low, especially if you can disguise your hand. You ought to fold split nines UTG at a full table, but short-handed, you can probably raise and perhaps should if it will get you a heads-up pot, especially against a player who will complete and three-bet with a razzy low.

Jamming on fifth seems like lunacy. I don't think there is any reasonable hand your opponent has where you are the favorite. You probably gain more value by keeping the third player in rather than jamming it. Or possibly, you just lose less value. So, I think your only reasonable options are checking and calling or checking and folding. If checking and folding is wrong, it probably isn't very wrong.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

I wrote a longer response but accidentally lost it.

On the point about received wisdom, I could give many examples of what I mean from certain regular posters here (that 75-150 hand where hero had buried JJ comes to mind), but it's really not important.

As for the hand, clearly you are right that we are not a favorite against any realistic hand on 5th, and yes, jamming would be terrible.

I originally thought the pot was large enough that we would want to call down unless the 854 guy catches another low on 6th, but now I see you are right and check-folding is very reasonable.

I'm still a little uncomfortable check-folding when the 3rd guy appears to be in much worse shape than we are though. As long as we do in fact have the best current high hand we would be very correct to call down. On the other hand we could be drawing dead so maybe we should just get out.

If the hand had played out what should be the standard fashion (i.e. we reraised on 3rd) and we still got 3-way action, the pot would now be big enough on 5th that we are definitely interested in calling down and we do want the middle guy out in case the apparent made low has actually paired. I think in that case a bet-call would be warranted.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]


I'm still a little uncomfortable check-folding when the 3rd guy appears to be in much worse shape than we are though. As long as we do in fact have the best current high hand we would be very correct to call down. On the other hand we could be drawing dead so maybe we should just get out.

If the hand had played out what should be the standard fashion (i.e. we reraised on 3rd) and we still got 3-way action, the pot would now be big enough on 5th that we are definitely interested in calling down and we do want the middle guy out in case the apparent made low has actually paired. I think in that case a bet-call would be warranted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see two problems.

One, you can't discount the possibility that the apparent low hand actually has a high hand and has you beat for high (or even the third player has you beat). It's a bit read-dependent (I've known a few players who are more likely to complete the bring-in with a big pair in the hole), but you do need to account for that possibility. If this is a close decision, then figuring out how the Seat 2 would play a big pair in the hole or how Seat 1 might play a three-flush that paired his ten on fourth street might tip the balance. Those may not be the likely hands, but they have to factor into your analysis.

Second, the bet-call on fifth scenario seems to rely on the third player folding sufficiently often. If he's really is loose, I can see him chasing a low here if he decides that there is a chance that his low draw is good. On the other hand, if he has a small pair here, he might fold for one bet if you check and call. I would be more willing to consider playing it bet-call the way you want on fifth if you had two pair as some protection from a small two pair hand.

One important thing to consider here is that you are very likely to face a bet on sixth and seventh, so continuing on fifth street should be understood as a likely investment of three big bets to go after what is already in the pot, and sometimes to go after only half of what is in the pot.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

Good fifth st. I'd have done it one sooner, on 4th. Then again on 5th too, if 3rd guy still hung around. I also would have bet when he caught high on 6th. I'd check/call the river unimproved, but bet right out if I improved to 2 pr.

You've got to punish the holdem type and use your position (like you did on 5th) to thin the field. The holdem type will raise junk hands like AQ4 all day long and you've got to begin taking value via marginal value bets (like betting on 6th here when he catches high). And hands like 9's up are a solid value bet on the river against their type.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

Anyone suggesting folding this hand at any point will eventually get killed in an aggressive 3-handed game. You've got to accept that the variance will be sickening, but not playing these type hands out, in this type of 3-handed situation, is expensive. You've simply got to play poker well.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]
this would save me a bet.

[/ QUOTE ] You're not looking to save a bet - in this instance you're looking to fully maximize your expectation. You're not going to win every hand in this spot, but getting as much into the middle as possible is proper.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

the main reason i went for the c/r on 5th was to thin the field and get my equity up (although at the cost of 3 bets on fifth and call down sixth/7th)

the last thing i wanted was seat 1 to make a baby two pair and take the high. with a c/r i was sure he'd lay down a pair and make sure he didn't back into baby two pair/low draw and me get middled.

now that i read the responses, i prefer a lead bet on 5th. as somebody said, if they can't beat 99, they should fold.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone suggesting folding this hand at any point will eventually get killed in an aggressive 3-handed game. You've got to accept that the variance will be sickening, but not playing these type hands out, in this type of 3-handed situation, is expensive. You've simply got to play poker well.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like first-level thinking, where you are only thinking about your hand. Based on the betting that has happened, the cards that are out, and your read of your opponent, there are situations where you can fold at some point while holding this type of hand.

For those who applaud increasing your equity, how much equity do you think you have? How much equity do you think you are gaining by knocking the third player out?

final thoughts and results.
 

ran a bunch of hand possibilities for 5th street:

if seat 2 has a made low, he's hovering around 60% of equity and i pick up about 8-10% by knocking out seat 1.

if seat 2 has a split pair or buried pair below nines, i have low-30% pot equity and pick up another 10% by knocking out seat 1.

so, by me c/r'ing on fifth, seat 2 is getting the best of it in most cases and i pick up on avg. 10% of equity by knocking out seat 1. not a money winner in the long run but I do pick up seat 1's dead money. a reraise on 3rd might isolate (prob. not SH'ed and in this particular game) but a c/r on fourth would be cheaper to isolate. like i said, i was shocked seat 1 called fourth so a c/r in the future would pretty much get me HU w/seat 2. not a great place to be, but if I get it HU and seat 2 bricks 5th, equity swings in my fav.

as played on fifth, a lead should save me that extra big bet when i do get scooped.

results: seat 2 had pocket deuces and made a low on seventh for a chop.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those who applaud increasing your equity, how much equity do you think you have? How much equity do you think you are gaining by knocking the third player out?

[/ QUOTE ] To somewhat oversimplifly it - short handed stud 8 is about the high hand punishing the low draw(s). A pair of nines vs. any low draw on 3rd and 4th is in good shape - a pair of nines against two low draws or one low draw and a couple of overcards not so much. You benefit immensely by getting rid of one of them. Run some sims and see for yourself. Do you want to lose a pot because you tried to save a small bet on 4th by not rr'ing?

Playing short handed correctly increases variance as well as expectation. Passivity + short handed play = losses. There's just no way around it.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

I totally agree with the essence of this post and I think the conventional wisdom on this board is definitely too weak/tight/passive with respect to overpairs in stud 8.

However two nits:

1. Actually you can be in terrible shape on 4th versus a single low opponent, but admittedly that is rare and shouldn't influence your play that much since you never know you're in that spot.

2. I thought most of the argument in this thread was about playing 5th strong versus a guy showing 3 low and a guy showing 2 low.

That's obviously a much worse spot than on 4th facing a guy showing 2 low and a guy showing a low and a brick.

Fourth you should clearly play to get heads up.

Fifth is a much more delicate situation (and one you should not often be in against decent opponents).

I think on 5th as much as you would like to eliminate the uncompleted low draw it may be best to play passively, considering you're unimproved and the pot is not that big.

At this point you lose a lot on the jamming with the possible made low and your equity gain is much reduced by the fact that the low half is usually already gone now.

Also you will want to fold if the 3 low catches another low on 6th and you're still on one pair.

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

I think it's okay to try and knock out a player on fourth. I think that it's a bit more dubious to try to do so on fifth.

Let's say that you lead on fifth and the 5T8 calls, which he just might because it is only one more bet. If the low board then raises, the 5T8 will probably also call if you just call, assuming he just called your first bet. Should you then raise to drive out the third player, knowing that the possible made low will most likely cap it?

If it gets capped on fifth and the third player is not knocked out, what is your strategy if you don't improve on sixth?

Re: stud 8 - prof backwards
 

[ QUOTE ]

If it gets capped on fifth and the third player is not knocked out, what is your strategy if you don't improve on sixth?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your objection in this post, but since you asked...

If it actually got capped 3-ways on 5th you would clearly have no choice but to check-call 6th and 7th as long as it is one bet to you have not improved. You would fold for 2 cold at any point if you have not improved and maybe if you have, depending on the circumstances.

The unpleasantness of this situation kind of underscores why you should play to eliminate on 4th, when it is a lot cheaper to do so.