Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

I'm starting a new thread on this because I would like to hear comments specifically about Dr.Schoonmaker's thoughts. He is having computer problems or he would have posted this himself. The subject matter is explained in the thread "What book should I write next?" I want to add that the algebra book I had in mind would be too simplistic to be appropriate for a textbook. It's purpose would be mainly to keep math challenged kids from flunking. Adults could use it as a refresher and precoscious younger children might like it as well. But it wouldn't replace the official text:

"David,

I’ll comment on all four.

WHAT POKER TEACHES US

As you know, I am fascinated by this subject, believe that poker can teach
many useful lessons, and have written about it. However, I’m unsure of the
commercial prospects. A literary agent told me that she had great
difficulty getting a publisher for a similar book by a moderately well-known
poker author.

ALGEBRA FOR TEN YEAR OLDS (And those who think like them).

You did not describe your approach in your post, but we did discuss it
recently. I believe that your basic premise is brilliant pedagogically, but
commercially unattractive. The people who buy it would get a great book, but
hardly anyone will buy it (unless you find a new way to market it).

The educational establishment is EXTRAORDINARILY resistant to change. For
example, lectures became obsolete when the printing press was invented five
centuries ago, but they are still the primary instructional method.

Teachers and administrators are EXTREMELY opposed to anything that improves
performance or even allows it to be measured. The teachers’ unions were the
most vociferous opponents of the proficiency tests, and they absolutely
insist that teachers’ compensation should be based on non-performance
criteria. In fact, they have fought against nearly every attempt to improve
American students’ abysmal performance on tests of math, science, etc.

Textbooks are purchased by bureaucracies, and the decisions have almost
nothing to do with how well a book teaches. It is an extremely centralized
and politicized process, which is completely different from the way 2+2 has
sold books.

You would therefore have to find a new way to sell books, and that is not
your own or Mason’s expertise. Nor do either of you want to worry about new
ways to market and distribute books. In other words, stick to what you both
do well, writing and publishing gambling books.

50 POKER HANDS THAT REALLY TEACH YOU SOMETHING

Although I’m sure you could do an outstanding job with this book, I can’t
imagine poker players agreeing that there is only one way to play a hand.
Just look at our forums. Some debates about hands have five or more
positions.

None-the-less, I am sure that this book would be a commercial and pedagogic
success. Poker players LOVE to discuss hands. In fact, I doubt that you
should try to write THE definitive answer to how a hand should be played.
Instead, say this hand can be played in (say) three ways. Then give the pros
and cons of each way.

That approach would stimulate discussions on our forums, and those
discussions create active learning. By chance, my next series of “Card
Player” articles is on “Learning Efficiently,” and it stresses the
importance of active learning.

Because you would select the right hands and lay out the pros and cons of
various approaches, the forum discussions would be much better structured
than usual. People would be able to see that Charlie is making this mistake,
but Susie is making a different one. That helps people to understand how
their own thinking processes are flawed.

A SIMPLE GUIDE TO "THE THEORY OF POKER"

TOP is the greatest poker book ever written, and a simplified version of it
would be a HUGE seller. There are literally millions of potential readers.
They know they need to understand more theory, but TOP is too difficult for
them. I think it’s the one you should write.

Not only should you simplify the text, you should also add a number of
tests. These tests should measure:
• The understanding of theory
• The ability to apply it to problems

The “Answers” should comment on the significance of various errors and tell
readers what to do to correct them. For example, if someone chooses answer
A, it means he doesn’t fully understand Concept X and should read specific
pages.

I hope my comments are usual.

Regards,

Al"

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
TOP is the greatest poker book ever written, and a simplified version of it
would be a HUGE seller. There are literally millions of potential readers.
They know they need to understand more theory, but TOP is too difficult for
them. I think it’s the one you should write.

Not only should you simplify the text, you should also add a number of
tests. These tests should measure:
• The understanding of theory
• The ability to apply it to problems

The “Answers” should comment on the significance of various errors and tell
readers what to do to correct them. For example, if someone chooses answer
A, it means he doesn’t fully understand Concept X and should read specific
pages.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
50 POKER HANDS THAT REALLY TEACH YOU SOMETHING

Although I’m sure you could do an outstanding job with this book, I can’t imagine poker players agreeing that there is only one way to play a hand. Just look at our forums. Some debates about hands have five or more positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without having thought about the others much, this quote springs into my eye so I can comment on it easily.

The discussions on the 2+2 board about David Sklansky hands suffer from one major problem: David will hardly ever post his solution and if he does, there won't be any explanation. People are used to this "do you see why?" or "I let others elaborate"-stuff and it has already become a running gag.

This is why I think that this book could fill a huge gap.

Nevertheless, since I have made it a rule for myself to read everything written by David, I am looking forward to any of these books and I hope that all of them get written sooner or later.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

The questions I post on this forum are usually a lot more debatable than the ones I have in mind for the book.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Dr. Al is basically right about the books. But this statement:
[ QUOTE ]

Teachers and administrators are EXTREMELY opposed to anything that improves
performance or even allows it to be measured

[/ QUOTE ]

is patently absurd. I've worked extensively in the education space and wholehartedly agree with the gist of his concerns about entrenched bureaucracies (including teachers unions). But to say that teachers and admins oppose increasing performance is deeply insulting to educators and is just plain nuts.

It would be more accurate to say that entrenched bureaucracies are highly resistant to change, and this will be a major obstacle to implementing your pedagogical approach and selling your book.

He is correct that marketing a textbook is a vastly different enterprise than marketing a poker book. Hence, you would need a different marketing strategy. If you were seriously interested in this, you should pitch your idea to a major textbook publisher and see what they think.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

I think a new Theory of poker would be a great idea and lots of people would show interest.
You would need to rivise it into limit and no limit concepts, and perhaps you can now explain the differences in theory between the two betting structures. That book would sell.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
He is correct that marketing a textbook is a vastly different enterprise than marketing a poker book. Hence, you would need a different marketing strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested to David on instant messenger that he approach a large tutoring service like Sylvan Learning Center to not only sell the book as part of their services, but to patent and sell the method for all of their tutors to use. I believe that would make him a lot more money and help a lot of struggling students.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

David,

"stick to what you both do well, writing and publishing gambling books."

I think that's a pretty lame attitude.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
TOP is the greatest poker book ever written, and a simplified version of it would be a HUGE seller. There are literally millions of potential readers. They know they need to understand more theory, but TOP is too difficult for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might it be possible that the opposite is true? Might not an expanded version be more attractive to the potential poker readers out there?

To take it a step further, might an expanded, 21st Century edition TOP be a great opportunity to bring in someone like Bill Robertie as a co-author.

Sklansky is an acknowledged guru of theory, but the nature of the writing and editing in TOP is what makes the material difficult, not the theory itself.

HOH was a huge success in part due to its accessibility. The writing and clarity of presentation was on par with the information provided. If a new edition of TOP were to be written to the same standards there'd be no need for simplification. The nature of the way games have changed would invite a lot of new material.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
A SIMPLE GUIDE TO "THE THEORY OF POKER"

TOP is the greatest poker book ever written, and a simplified version of it
would be a HUGE seller. There are literally millions of potential readers.
They know they need to understand more theory, but TOP is too difficult for
them. I think it’s the one you should write.

Not only should you simplify the text, you should also add a number of
tests. These tests should measure:
• The understanding of theory
• The ability to apply it to problems

The “Answers” should comment on the significance of various errors and tell
readers what to do to correct them. For example, if someone chooses answer
A, it means he doesn’t fully understand Concept X and should read specific
pages.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but that's why I don't want you to write it. If you only want to sell books and make money (which I would completely understand, and which I would probably want in your position), then this book is almost certainly the best choice. However, I don't think that anyone NEEDS this book. If they do not understand the concepts as presented in the original TOP, then they will never be a world-class (or even extremely good) player.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

David --

See El Diablo's post.

Also, the printing-press bit about lectures' being "obsolete" is ridiculous, as are most of Dr. Al's points. I read 2+2 books voraciously and can stomach the writing of psychologists more than many educated people can, but I find that Schoonmaker is more often playing with words than communicating effectively with his audience.

Write the algebra book.

--Nate

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]


The educational establishment is EXTRAORDINARILY resistant to change. For
example, lectures became obsolete when the printing press was invented five
centuries ago, but they are still the primary instructional method.

Teachers and administrators are EXTREMELY opposed to anything that improves
performance or even allows it to be measured. The teachers’ unions were the
most vociferous opponents of the proficiency tests, and they absolutely
insist that teachers’ compensation should be based on non-performance
criteria. In fact, they have fought against nearly every attempt to improve
American students’ abysmal performance on tests of math, science, etc.

Textbooks are purchased by bureaucracies, and the decisions have almost
nothing to do with how well a book teaches. It is an extremely centralized
and politicized process, which is completely different from the way 2+2 has
sold books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wrote a long post and then lost it.

But David your ideas about the educational system are absurd. I'll give you that choosing textbooks is a very political process.

However, lectures are not obsolete and I don't see why you'd think that unless you think that everybody can just read the material now that it can be printed. I'd like to welcome you back to reality though. I don't know anything about you and perhaps you were just lucky and had great parents, went to a great school system, and associated with very motivated and talented students. However, I'd have thought that by the time you reached your age you'd realize that kids don't like to read. The kids won't read anything. Teachers are encouraged to lecture less today, but some lecturing is necessary because the kids won't read it on their own. Not to mention some kids that function a lower level and need the teacher to repeat and further explain the information.

I don't know why you think teachers oppose improving performance. What exactly were these attempts to improve performance that teachers fought so hard against? Note: Standardized tests don't improve performance.

You are right though that measuring performance is very important. However, the politicians set this system up very poorly. Inner cities and other poor areas are doomed to failure. The kids simply don't have the background or the family support to pass these standardized tests in large numbers and after they fail and the state takes away funding things get...better? I'm just waiting for the first district to fail the required number of years in a row so the state has to go in and take over. What magc wand is the state going to wave that will all of a sudden make the students capable of passing these tests in the required numbers. And a 100% passing rate by 2010? Please. Since when can 100% of people do anything?

As for teachers being rated based on performance of course they fight against this because it is an absurd, stupid, ridiculous way to rate teachers. You wouldn't rate a dentist based on the average number of cavities his patients have. The reality is that more students in inner cities will fail these tests and will get more cavities than students living in rich suburban areas. If every teacher was teaching the same kids in the same situation then this rating system would be fair. However, with all the variables just looking at the students' test results is an absolutely terrible way to determine how good a teacher is at his/her job.


I'm a college senior history/secondary ed. major in my last semester and am currently a student teacher at a high school.
I actually plan to go to law school and not teach, although plans can change as we all know, but your views on the education system were so horribly skewed and smeared an entire group of people called teachers that I felt it had to be answered.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
But David your ideas about the educational system are absurd. I'll give you that choosing textbooks is a very political process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those aren't David's words, they're Dr. Al's.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But David your ideas about the educational system are absurd. I'll give you that choosing textbooks is a very political process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those aren't David's words, they're Dr. Al's.

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies. I don't know who Dr. Al is, but his ideas about the educational system are absurd.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Come on Sklansky, ALGEBRA BOOK will make you a legend.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

I have no idea who that Alan guy is, but I disagree with him on almost every point.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Dr. Schoonmaker's views on ALGEBRA FOR TEN YEAR OLDS is flawed. He is assuming the only way the book would be published is if it were published, marketed and distributed by 2+2 - which IMHO would be a huge mistake. You need to find a partner publisher which specializes in the education market. A publisher partner like Kaplan might love your concept, they specialize in breaking down education barriers.

But keep in mind that your reputation for dating a 16 year old (even if you didn't know) won't exactly help find a partner publisher. I think it would have been better keeping that story under wraps if your intention is to market this book to teens. Perhaps a better solution is to market the book for adults who have forgotten rudimentary algebra?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Hi Everyone:

I haven't read the thread but there is another book I've always wanted to do. It would be called, A Few Historical Events from an Expert Gambler's Perspective. It could start with the story of David and Goliath and explain that even thoug Goliath was the prohibited betting favorite, he didn't have a chance and the Jews knew this.

By the way, we at Two Plus Two have commitments to a number of projects so David's books will have to wait.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Mason,

Are you leveling [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

David,

A long time ago you were quoted as saying that you looked forward to the day when you were viewed as an authority on something outside gambling. Here's your chance.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Mason, this is a fantastic idea. People love history, especially "what if?" scenerios. People also love vicarious gambling. If the two could be combined in an enjoyable, fluidly readable way it would be a great book.

As I read David's posts about sports coaching and the repeated "obvious" errors they make, it parallels decisions made by historical figures such as war generals, politicians, and business leaders. This could be a very interesting read.

I would also like to see the book detail the evolution of people's erroneous decisions. This could take famous stories from the past, show why and how a bad decision was made, and we could learn how to make better decisions for ourselves in our own important moments.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Of all these ideas the 50 poker hands gets my strongest support. I studied chess for a brief period and have always been confused about why chess books offer so many real life play examples and poker books so few. It would seem to make a lot of sense both in selling books and teaching poker. You could have a vol. 1 through vol. 500 of just hand after hand. Hell, you could take hands that have appeared on this site and cut your work load. Come to think of it, you could just follow Harrington's lead and have a workbook for HPFAP and NLTAP. Ed Miller and Zee could jump on the bandwagon with the small stakes and tough games stuff and on and on yada yada...Basically it would just be sweet.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
ALGEBRA FOR TEN YEAR OLDS (And those who think like them).

The educational establishment is EXTRAORDINARILY resistant to change. For example, lectures became obsolete when the printing press was invented five centuries ago, but they are still the primary instructional method.

Teachers and administrators are EXTREMELY opposed to anything that improves performance or even allows it to be measured. The teachers’ unions were the most vociferous opponents of the proficiency tests, and they absolutely insist that teachers’ compensation should be based on non-performance criteria. In fact, they have fought against nearly every attempt to improve American students’ abysmal performance on tests of math, science, etc.

Textbooks are purchased by bureaucracies, and the decisions have almost nothing to do with how well a book teaches. It is an extremely centralized and politicized process, which is completely different from the way 2+2 has sold books.

[/ QUOTE ]

Schoonmaker is a respected 2+2 author so I'll hold off the scathing criticism, but one has to wonder how teacher resistance to performance tests and measurements has anything to do with a book that could improve a class's performance??

Beyond that, I don't buy the establishment stuff. For one, we changed and modernized textbooks often when I was in school. For two, there is a huge private school market that is very interested in student performance.. For three, private tutoring and home schooling is a large and growing market. Overall, the whole math textbook market is pretty large. If a good book came out, it would sell.

The only issues I see are marketing (is 2+2 positioned to do that?) and the fact that Sklansky is an unknown in the wider world. Gambling credentials probably don't count for much in the school textbook world. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

"But keep in mind that your reputation for dating a 16 year old (even if you didn't know) won't exactly help find a partner publisher. I think it would have been better keeping that story under wraps if your intention is to market this book to teens. Perhaps a better solution is to market the book for adults who have forgotten rudimentary algebra?"

Putting aside the fact that the actual story is not that bad, I want to make this comment.

If a known rapist, child molester, wrote the only book that could raise your child's algebra grade from a B to a C, and you didn't purchase it because of his crimes, you should have your child taken from you.

Actually though, because of the way this world works, the fact is that a semi known person like myself is unfortunately more, not less, likely to get this book to the marketplace because of that story. (Or the 50K SAT religion challenge.)

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

If a known rapist, child molester, wrote the only book that could raise your child's algebra grade from a B to a C, and you didn't purchase it because of his crimes, you should have your child taken from you.


Lol. i think you know what im gonna say but where I went to school a B was higher than a C... And if my kid was getting a C in algebra id whoop him...

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

(-b) +/- (sqrt (b^2) - 4ac) / 2a)

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

hey David,

what is the answer to this:

("X" = multiplied by)

(x - a) X (x - b) X (x - c) ... (x - z)

where x = 101 and a = 1, b = 2, c = 3, etc...

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
"But keep in mind that your reputation for dating a 16 year old (even if you didn't know) won't exactly help find a partner publisher. I think it would have been better keeping that story under wraps if your intention is to market this book to teens. Perhaps a better solution is to market the book for adults who have forgotten rudimentary algebra?"

Putting aside the fact that the actual story is not that bad, I want to make this comment.

If a known rapist, child molester, wrote the only book that could raise your child's algebra grade from a B to a C, and you didn't purchase it because of his crimes, you should have your child taken from you.

Actually though, because of the way this world works, the fact is that a semi known person like myself is unfortunately more, not less, likely to get this book to the marketplace because of that story. (Or the 50K SAT religion challenge.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I don't see anything wrong with the relationship as you previously described since you were unaware, unfortunately the average American will be far quicker to judge you. Fox News is filled with stories like this, it would make for great publicity but I cannot imagine any educational publisher interested in risking their reputation (disclaimer - I'm a magazine publisher, I do not publish books but I have intimate understanding of the PR ramifications) or their bottom line. Your 50K SAT challenge is different and might help you find a deal, but of course some wackos would attempt to use that against you as well (but they are religious wackos after all, we have to expect that).

Remember educational publishers are always pro-children... they will avoid being associated with anyone who might be misconstrued as being a child molester in the eyes of others.


Once again - I do not view you as a child molester, I am nearly pointing out the way the average uninformed American views matters such as this. Thats why I suggest aiming the book at an adult audience, letting viral marketing and PR promote the title to parents whose children can also benefit.This is all constructive criticism, I REALLY hope you write that book!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Maybe it's just me, but what would be simplified in a simplified ToP? Would semi-bluffing become drawie-bluffing? Would pg. 57 be intentionally left blank to allow for naptime?

Joking aside, I'm not clear on how you would simplify it even though I've read your proposal in the other thread. What concepts do you believe are in need of a re-work to reach a less sophisticated audience?

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

i really want the 50 hands book. so get to work.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read the thread but there is another book I've always wanted to do. It would be called, A Few Historical Events from an Expert Gambler's Perspective. It could start with the story of David and Goliath and explain that even thoug Goliath was the prohibited betting favorite, he didn't have a chance and the Jews knew this.

[/ QUOTE ]

DO IT !

The stories in one of your other books (GTOT?) on self-weighting and non-self-weighting stratigies was very interesting, especially the Civil War one(s).

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
If a known rapist, child molester, wrote the only book that could raise your child's algebra grade from a B to a C, and you didn't purchase it because of his crimes, you should have your child taken from you.


[/ QUOTE ]

And given to the rapist/child molester for tutoring?

And just because you don't want to lower his grade from B to C?

Some people are going to take you serious.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
wrote the only book that could raise your child's algebra grade from a B to a C,

[/ QUOTE ]

Another book proposal just hit the trash can.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Huh?

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

If you're trying to publish a book that will turn B's into C's, your personal history is the least of your worries.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wrote the only book that could raise your child's algebra grade from a B to a C,

[/ QUOTE ]

Another book proposal just hit the trash can.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]


David,

Obviously the book you need to write is a cure for dyslexia.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

David,

Regarding those four ideas for a book my thoughts are:

1) WHAT POKER TEACHES US

The way to increase the marketablility of this book would be 5 or 6 chapter headings/topics to which you apply poker reasoning, and preferably applying same to some current real life situations in war, business, education, relationships, etc. However in line with what Dr. Al said, its prospects might be limited anyway, and probably because a lot of even very smart people who don't gamble aren't willing to be open-minded as to the general premise that poker offers something uniquely applicable to such areas. Also FWIW, should you and he have any mutual inclination, this would be a fantastic topic on which to collaborate with Mike Caro.

2) ALGEBRA FOR TEN YEAR OLDS

This is the book that should be your priority. Screw the considerations Dr. Al gave about commercial success vis a vis educational institutions buying it. It is parents who will buy it precisely because the schools and teachers aren't doing a good job teaching their kids algebra for whatever reasons.

3) 50 POKER HANDS THAT REALLY TEACH YOU SOMETHING

There is a lot of potential in this for teaching the correct thought process in considering a hand, and especially how to prioritize the various factors that should be considered according to each specific situation. Barry Greenstein devoted a chapter of his book to such analysis but didn't come close to giving a full exposition on hand analysis.

4) A SIMPLE GUIDE TO "THE THEORY OF POKER"

To me this is the worst book idea, simply because I don't see how the TOP can be streamlined without losing too much. If anything, their is more room for an expansion or more thorough explanation of it, especially adding in more game theory applications that build on Chen & Ankemann's work.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

ROTFL

Read what you wrote, David.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

Well, just a book of poker stories about people and times would be fine, but I don't think that side of David's brain is as fully wired as the other one.

Re: Alan Schoonmaker\'s Opinion For My Next Book
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're trying to publish a book that will turn B's into C's, your personal history is the least of your worries.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf is this the B&M forum?