AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

Since WPX hand histories suck, I can't make them a word document without a lot of work (lol documents) and there is no converter for WPX I'm just going to post this hand by itself.

He knows who I am; I know who he is.

He's played well so far and hasn't gotten out of line at all. His preflop range seems about right (he'll threebet legit hands and throw in some others). Never calls OTB, ect. He seems to play the big streets especially well.

If he's making any errors, he is not putting in that extra bet once in a while.

I'm running really well and have him stuck about a buy in. Because of this, he might think I'm slightly laggier than your normal good 1/2 HU player (which is probably true).

Anyway the hand:

He raises OTB. I 3-bet A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet. He calls.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Bet. Call.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I Bet. He raises. I threebet. He four-bets. I fold.

Final pot was 13 BB.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

I don't specialize in limit, and I understand your thinking here that he is definitely not bluffing, but are you sure he isn't going to make this move with AK or a slightly worse K? But given the read that he is completely straightforward or whatever, I guess this is fine. I dunno, 90% of my HU play is NL, so I'm a donk here and call for the odds. He really can't be chasing with overs here and just tied you or hit KQ? He's a different kind of LHE player than most I have played then.

btw I think the final pot is actually 7 BBs isn't it? Maybe it was 14 small bets, minus one for rake? Oh or wait nm, you mean 14 big blinds, I was thinking BB=big bet.

p.s. bonus points for how you played the hand if you just folded air here but posted that you had AK knowing he'll see this and start trying to checkraise you off TPTK on every river.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

this hand seems all [censored] up.

are you BB? if so why is he checking the flop, etc?

if your question is: should you bet/fold TPTK on this river, i don't think i like it.

maybe there's something i don't see or the order makes sense or something but i dunno.

bbbushu

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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btw I think the final pot is actually 7 BBs isn't it? Maybe it was 14 small bets, minus one for rake? Oh or wait nm, you mean 14 big blinds, I was thinking BB=big bet.


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he put in 5 BB plus my 4 BB plus 4 BB total between us preflop and postflop.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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this hand seems all [censored] up.

are you BB? if so why is he checking the flop, etc?

if your question is: should you bet/fold TPTK on this river, i don't think i like it.

maybe there's something i don't see or the order makes sense or something but i dunno.

bbbushu

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Your right. Fixed.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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btw I think the final pot is actually 7 BBs isn't it? Maybe it was 14 small bets, minus one for rake? Oh or wait nm, you mean 14 big blinds, I was thinking BB=big bet.


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he put in 5 BB plus my 4 BB plus 4 BB total between us preflop and postflop.

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Hmm yeah, I dunno, I guess I read the HH before you fixed it, it seems different now, I'm too confused to read it another few times and figure it out haha. But also I don't think my previous comments really stand, because I don't think you had him 4-betting the river in the OP, and my comments were based on him just checkraising you on the river. So ignore my post.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

jjh,

i'd rather check/raise this river and just call a three-bet.

if you're going to bet, i don't three-bet because i'd hate to fold TPTK here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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jjh,

i'd rather check/raise this river and just call a three-bet.

if you're going to bet, i don't three-bet because i'd hate to fold TPTK here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I'm not expecting him to bet when I check to him very often on this particular river. If he was more aggressive, I'd like check/raise/calling a lot more.

Do you like b/c or c/r more?


Oh yeah, I'm an effing idiot regarding hand histories. Don't know how I effed that one up so bad.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

if he's not aggressive enough to bet this river when checked to, i really don't want to three-bet.

i like bet/call then.

we should play sometime [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bbbushu

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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if he's not aggressive enough to bet this river when checked to, i really don't want to three-bet.

i like bet/call then.

we should play sometime [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bbbushu

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sure PM me.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

i might be a total fish here but why did you fold here ?
isnt he just using his button position
specially like you said he might think ur playing lag

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

I think the river 3-bet is thin. He's representing a wierdly played kings up with his 4-bet (K2 makes the most sense here), but getting 14-1 I think you have to call.

I think the real question in the hand is what range you put him on when he pops you on the river?

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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I think the river 3-bet is thin. He's representing a wierdly played kings up with his 4-bet (K2 makes the most sense here), but getting 14-1 I think you have to call.

I think the real question in the hand is what range you put him on when he pops you on the river?

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I agree villian is representing kings up with this raise, but I just don't see how he has it enough that I don't have a threebet here.

The thing is the only hand in his range that I don't beat is K2 or some soert of weird slowplay (and maybe J9). The flop is pretty coordinated so I would expect him to raise strong hands right away or on a safe turn , so I think we can discount really big hands (set, flopped two pair ect).

Given that he didn't raise me at any point in the hand, I think he alomst never has K7 or K8 or KT as all of these raise either the flop or the turn. So the hands that beat me are K2, which has to be somewhat discounted because villian will raise with a 2 some percentage of the time, and J9, which villian will raise some percentage of the time on the flop and some, larger, percentage on the turn.

I think villians play looks a lot more like a single pair of kings than anything else: KQ, KJ, KT, K9 all play this way up until the 4bet.

Once I threebet, my range is very narrow and powerful. When a reasonable player caps, it seems he can beat AK always, but still I'm not sure about the river fold, which is why I posted it. I'm pretty sure its mathematically a very close decision; if i'm getting 10-1 here, I think its an easy, easy fold, but in terms of metagame its probably better to just call.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

jjh,

i think we need to add in 22, 78, 8T and 7T to the range, here. i agree that a lot of times big hands spring the trap on the turn but its not nonsense to wait until the river comes and the board isn't a disaster to start putting in raises. the board has a decent amount of draws, for sure, and i think your thought process is good, but it seems kind of self-destructive to pursue extra value out of a pair hand with this kind of zeal [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

i don't know how he was playing - if this was the only time he four-bet on a big bet street then yeah you're probably beat. if he did this a lot but always had a strong hand when you called, there might be more leeway to his range that let's you call.

as a general rule, though, i don't think it's a good idea to go four-bets on the river with one pair against a solid, thinking opponent.

also, after some more thinking, i feel that a reasonable villain will value bet almost any pair on the river if we check, which is why i still would rather check/raise and call a three-bet on the end.

i might sanity call, though, to be honest. i dunno, tough spot.

bbbushu

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

It's good.
Personally I call this during the game b/c I don't trust my reads and analysis 100% under the pressure of a HU battle and I wouldn't risk making a big mistake by folding b/c there was a small detail that I missed.

Also: I think by not 3-betting the river we give up value. Checking is bad unless you think that you need to put a c-r for mixing up.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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jjh,

i think we need to add in 22, 78, 8T and 7T to the range, here. i agree that a lot of times big hands spring the trap on the turn but its not nonsense to wait until the river comes and the board isn't a disaster to start putting in raises.

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Your right in that my range doesn't account for all the possible hands that he could have in this spot (my range is too narrow), but as you've alluded to in your analysis, all the holdings that beat me have to be discounted to some degree or another.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

[ QUOTE ]
jjh,

i think we need to add in 22, 78, 8T and 7T to the range, here. i agree that a lot of times big hands spring the trap on the turn but its not nonsense to wait until the river comes and the board isn't a disaster to start putting in raises.

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Hmm, isn't that kind of backwards, to wait till the draws all miss on the river to start putting in bets? I think any hand better than 2 pair on the turn raises this turn alllll the time in LHE. Maybe in NL you can slowplay the turn here and then extract fully on the river since you've disguised your hand, but I think flat-calling with a strong hand on this turn is pretty bad and just throwing away value, and I think his range is much closer to kings up.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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but I think flat-calling with a strong hand on this turn is pretty bad and just throwing away value, and I think his range is much closer to kings up.

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It's not bad. It's a good play to mix up against an agressive opponent who will value bet the river very thin. This way when you raise the river you can have both 77 and 4h5h in your range.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

You should have just called his initial raise on the River.

Think about it, if he was playing particularly laggy enough to Raise/Cap a 1 pair hand on this River, he would have found a raise somewhere on the other streets as a semi-bluff, particularly the Flop.

Usually the C/C/Raise line is used with a particulary strong hand to gain maximum value against an aggressive, but wary opponent.

3-betting was a mistake, and 3-betting with the intention of folding to a Cap is a nightmare mistake.

In these huge pots against likely tricky players, choose the option that will get you to showdown. That means check-calling a lot of mediocre hands, and not doing stuff like this.

The pot is already 9BBs when he raises you, is missing an extra valuebet going to hurt you? Especially if getting capped means you have to fold in a 13BB pot?

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

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Think about it, if he was playing particularly laggy enough to Raise/Cap a 1 pair hand on this River, he would have found a raise somewhere on the other streets as a semi-bluff, particularly the Flop.


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I don't think he's laggy enough to cap the river with less than one pair, which is why i folded to the cap. I don't think you understand the gulf between what his river raise means and what his cap means.

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Usually the C/C/Raise line is used with a particulary strong hand to gain maximum value against an aggressive, but wary opponent.



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Usually a good villian will use this line on non-drawy boards with a very strong hand. This flop is draw heavy. I'm not saying he never has a hand like a set here because this villian is certainly good enough to balance his range, but that kind of hand has to be discounted given the flop texture. On this kind of board its more likely that he has some sort of weak SD type hand and that the king improved him on the end (king high and a pair of 2s both qualify as weak SD type hands).



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That means check-calling a lot of mediocre hands, and not doing stuff like this.


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TPTK is not a mediocre hand, especially HU.

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The pot is already 9BBs when he raises you, is missing an extra valuebet going to hurt you?



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Yes it does hurt me. It is important to valuebet relentlessly in large pots, especially against good players.

Re: AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)
 

if your gonna fold to a 4 bet dont 3 bet imo
your hand is good enough to get to showdown