Sniper
 

Briefly, first the positives....

As an active mod in a few of the mid traffic forums on 2+2, following the Mike Haven style of modding, my forums have been kept quiet and trouble free. I have the respect of the posters in my forums, and the support of the mods who's forums I actively participate in. Traffic has been slowly increasing, and I am making efforts to see that trend continues.

As Berge pointed out, my posts in Legislation are some of the most well traffic'd threads on 2+2. Dynasty has even been pressuring me to write an article for the mag on that stuff. My post count thread and analysis provides insight into whats going on traffic wise around the forums. And, I've recently started a project in TLDR to draw in some more thoughtful TV related content.

Some Mods are also aware that I (along with a small group of mods and posters) am actively involved in working on the test environment, in preparation for the UBB7 upgrade. I have also been working directly with Chuck, in resolving an issue with 800,000 posts that were not archived properly during the last archiving pass (this issue looks to now be resolved, with only a minor issue remaining).

And now the important stuff... In reviewing the recent threads, it is clear that I have some issues to deal with.

Some of my action have clearly been wrong and you guys rightly point them out...

1. In the case of Degen, I have been defending him too strongly and for too long. He is a problem and I have not given consideration to the thoughts of other mods. While my original intentions were sincere in defending a quality poster, his long term negative history clearly outweighs any benefits he provides to my forums. I told Mat a couple of days ago, that I was willing to ban Degen if that was the decision he or PA arrived at. It is now clear that my position should be, and now is, that PA should ban Degen. I assume that PA will take some action when he returns from playing poker.

2. Last years ElDiablo banning, I overreacted and should have handled in a different way. El Diablo deserved much more respect than I have shown him. I don't really know what to do to mend my relationship with him, but I believe him to be an important part of 2+2, and I will be focusing more attention on how I treat him.

3. Last years Iron banning, I really can't explain my actions at all. At the time it seemed the right thing, but reviewing my posts in that thread, it is clear that I was simply being an idiot. I also owe Ryan an opology for how I dealt with him in this and a couple of other situations.

More concerning to me is the way that I have dealt with these issues and others.

While Felicia says "he seems to sometimes make little comments to get the mods worked up here, but heck, a LOT of mods do that. I do that sometimes, especially if I think I can get Mat or Dynasty worked up. If I started voting that all mods who make snide comments in the mod forum should be de-modded, almost all of us would be gone, including me. There are very few Kumbaya mods like Andy Fox and Jim Kuhn."

That is still no excuse for me being a part of it. Having gone thru and reviewed my entire posting history in the Mod forum, I must admit that I said to myself "wtf was I thinking" a bit too many times. Looking back now with 20/20 vision I can honestly say that I royally screwed up some of my relationships with other mods. I hope that some of that damage can ultimately be worked out, but also realize that it is on my shoulders to do it. While the OOT mods and others may have different moderating styles, that is no reason for me to try to change what works for them.

Finally, I apologize for taking so long to respond to the issues raised. But, I honestly felt that I needed to do a lot of reflecting on the comments that have been made. The only way for me to do that was to make a concerted effort to feel the anger you guys were diplaying.

When this started, I told Mat that I didn't mind the criticism. Having reflected, I can now say that the criticism does hurt and I have given all of it deep consideration. I expect that this will be reflected in my future actions, and hope that some fences can indeed be mended.

I apologize to all Mods and especially to Mat for this problem, and hope that we can all find a way to work together to the further betterment of 2+2.

Lastly, I appreciate the support from those who showed it either publically or privately, but it was important for me to also reflect on the issues raised and think thru my mistakes. Hopefully, this will make me a better mod.

Re: Sniper
 

I agree with the positives preensted here. I don't see how the positives relate to mod activity. One can be a very valuable contributor without being a mod.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the positives preensted here. I don't see how the positives relate to mod activity. One can be a very valuable contributor without being a mod.

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent point. afaik nobody is calling for sniper to be banned. his modding is consistently terrible though, and i'm really of the opinion that he will say anything possible to save his neck, as evidenced by this post.

Re: Sniper
 

so basically, you admit you were wrong, and you have no idea what you would have done differently, but you admit that the stuff you did that EVERYONE TOLD YOU WAS WRONG was wrong.

how is this supposed to give anyone confidence in your FUTURE DECISIONS? it's an apology for a bunch of stuff that we all knew was ridiculous in the first place.

Re: Sniper
 

Your leg. and post count threads etc. along with your knowledge are certainly part of why I voted to keep you green. I will be banning Degen and his other accounts.

Degen
Rakeaid.com
Rakereport.net

Any others?
Rakeaid.com

Re: Sniper
 

bravo on finally banning degen obv

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your leg. and post count threads etc. along with your knowledge are certainly part of why I voted to keep you green

[/ QUOTE ]


this is akin to voting for a certain candidate for the office of president of the united states because you're a huge fan of an album he released or a sport he played well.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your leg. and post count threads etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument should just be thrown out. We are talking about whether or not he is going to be an acceptable moderator.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
so basically, you admit you were wrong, and you have no idea what you would have done differently, but you admit that the stuff you did that EVERYONE TOLD YOU WAS WRONG was wrong.

how is this supposed to give anyone confidence in your FUTURE DECISIONS? it's an apology for a bunch of stuff that we all knew was ridiculous in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sniper, I think this post was a good start. However, I want to hear more about what you plan to do differently now that you admit a willingness to make mistakes, both in terms of your mod actions, and how you relate to other mods.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your leg. and post count threads etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument should just be thrown out. We are talking about whether or not he is going to be an acceptable moderator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess I should abstain. I try to stay out and just run A/R since it is a close community of people who are mostly former custimers. I try to stay away from the issues that surround topics like this.

Re: Sniper
 

Sniper,

That response is pretty funny after what you wrote me in IM.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper,

That response is pretty funny after what you wrote me in IM.

[/ QUOTE ]

show plz

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper,

That response is pretty funny after what you wrote me in IM.

[/ QUOTE ]

whoa! details?

Re: Sniper
 

sniper,

did you or did you not give degen information from the mod forum?

Re: Sniper
 

Gild,

I'm gonna hold up and let Sniper respond to Wookie and nation's questions as well as write whatever he wants regarding the sincerity of his post before posting anything more.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gild,

I'm gonna hold up and let Sniper respond to Wookie and nation's questions as well as write whatever he wants regarding the sincerity of his post before posting anything more.

[/ QUOTE ]

good plan in theory, however i fear we're going to have to wait another 5 or 6 days for that. of course sniper will make 300 posts in various forums in the meantime, despite having no free time whatsoever.

Re: Sniper
 

El D you are such a tease. I am pulling my horns out in anticipation right now.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]

Some Mods are also aware that I (along with a small group of mods and posters) am actively involved in working on the test environment, in preparation for the UBB7 upgrade. I have also been working directly with Chuck, in resolving an issue with 800,000 posts that were not archived properly during the last archiving pass (this issue looks to now be resolved, with only a minor issue remaining).

[/ QUOTE ]

Food for thought - this is a very important part of anyone's decision making process, and IMHO should overrule any of the annoying sides of Sniper's communication history (not overrule his bad mod decisions of course). Sniper has been working very hard (along with Diebitter d.b.a. Carter and a few others) in helping Chuck get the new forum software up and running.

I think few of us actually help the behind the scenes forum operation like Sniper does. Therefore I'd like to suggest a third alternative - what if we instead chose to censure him? This would remove his "greenness", and strip him of his forum, but allow him to remain a mod at large and therefore continue to support Chuck in forum operations. The down side to this alternative suggestion is that Sniper has done a fair job of moderating his forum so far, so in a strange way we would be penalizing the finance forum regulars more than we would be penalizing Sniper. The other downside to my suggestion is that Sniper would of course continue to be able to access the mod forum, which I assume many would object to. But I say this to the objectors - removing Sniper may also penalize Chuck, and thats something I don't want to do.

opinions?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gild,

I'm gonna hold up and let Sniper respond to Wookie and nation's questions as well as write whatever he wants regarding the sincerity of his post before posting anything more.

[/ QUOTE ]

good plan in theory, however i fear we're going to have to wait another 5 or 6 days for that. of course sniper will make 300 posts in various forums in the meantime, despite having no free time whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he doesn't squash this today, there should be zero chance of him being green at the end of today. im tired of these games.

Re: Sniper
 

what the [censored], there is no excuse for this delay. sniper is deliberately dodging my question about leaking mod forum info to degen. i feel like i'm taking crazy pills.

Re: Sniper
 

nation,

he's only been asked four or five times, so maybe he just missed it? i mean he's been reading over a LOT of posts.

Re: Sniper
 

What if we place sniper on some sort of probation for a month or 2. He renains a mod but if he miss steps, hes done. Give him another chance.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if we place sniper on some sort of probation for a month or 2. He renains a mod but if he miss steps, hes done. Give him another chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if we wait and see if he knows how to answer more than one question a week before we start giving in to his assinine behavior thus far

Re: Sniper
 

This whole process is rediculous

You guys clammored for a response and he gave you one. He basically said "you are right, I was wrong" but of course that's not enough. Now you want details on how he'll mod in the future, which is impossible to do completely out of any context. Not that I'm even convinced that anything he says will make people satisfied.

You guys act like you've never made any mistakes in your modding during the past 6 months. I think all three choices were bad ones and I hope that I wouldn't make the same errors, but at the same time I hope that when I do make "an error" that I'm not witch-hunted like this.

Some of you don't think his other contributions should matter at all in this process. I completely disagree. Other contributions to 2+2 show a committment to the betterment of the site as a whole and indicate to me a willingness to learn and grow for that end.

Then there's this whole issue of timely response, which to me is a clear indication of the excessive zeal in this spot.

Nothing I say is going to change what people think, but it needed to be said.

Re: Sniper
 

berge,

i have no problems with sniper aside from the degen issue. he has stated that he made a mistake, which is fine. but he has consistently dodged my question of whether he gave info to degen about the mod forum. i really don't care whether degen is angry at me or not, but the fact that he got the info is messed up.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
This whole process is rediculous

You guys clammored for a response and he gave you one. He basically said "you are right, I was wrong" but of course that's not enough. Now you want details on how he'll mod in the future, which is impossible to do completely out of any context. Not that I'm even convinced that anything he says will make people satisfied.

You guys act like you've never made any mistakes in your modding during the past 6 months. I think all three choices were bad ones and I hope that I wouldn't make the same errors, but at the same time I hope that when I do make "an error" that I'm not witch-hunted like this.

Some of you don't think his other contributions should matter at all in this process. I completely disagree. Other contributions to 2+2 show a committment to the betterment of the site as a whole and indicate to me a willingness to learn and grow for that end.

Then there's this whole issue of timely response, which to me is a clear indication of the excessive zeal in this spot.

Nothing I say is going to change what people think, but it needed to be said.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main problem with Sniper is not the completely ridiculous and bizarre mod decisions, but that he doesn't listen to logic, makes arguments that are completely idiotic, never budges, misquotes Mat and Ryan to further his own stuff, etc. Also as noted by someone he is always the quickest to wag his finger at others that don't follow whatever rules or procedures have been in place. Often in these cases he's in the wrong. In general he adds a lot of noise and makes it more difficult to give and get feedback in this forum.

He didn't make mistakes in these cases, they just exposed his standard operating procedure. Like others, I have made mistakes. Like everyone but sniper, my errors were rectified quickly and nothing came of it because I was able to admit that I had made a mistake and hashed it out with Ryan.

Sniper in the past has shown that he will say whatever it takes to further his aims and protect his ass. With Degen he made a lot of arguments for degen because he was a poster in the finance forum. When that didn't fly he moved on to the argument that degen was an advertiser so it was more complicated. In the other thread, Mat made a post saying that he really wanted Sniper's input. When daryn noted that he hadn't posted yet, sniper claimed that he had been busy outside 2+2. When it was demonstrated that this was false, he claimed that he had been busy reading thousands of posts in the mod forum to review the situation.

The examples above are just a couple that obviously recently come to mind. In both cases we have sniper simply saying what is necesary to cover his own ass or further his own personal situation, even if at odds with the good of the forums at large. In the OP of this thread, he has basically done more of the same. He had to admit that what he'd done is wrong. He pointed to a few things that are 100% obviously wrong.

When someone is in a situation where they HAVE to apologize and they do, I don't see what has changed as a result. As I said, the problem isn't the specific things he claimed were wrong actions on his part, it's more general.

Jared

Re: Sniper
 

berge, yeah, he basically said, 'you guys were right, i was wrong.' that was a given. that was said by pretty much everyone involved MONTHS ago. the problem is that he made us wait the better part of a week for it, and despite the length of his response, he didn't say anything else. he didn't answer the question of whether he has shared mod forum info (which is sweet, hilarious, too good to be true irony). he didn't say anything about what he would do differently, or why he has never admitted that he was wrong in the past, or why he couldn't make resolving this issue a priority while he was making posts in three other forums all weekend.

so yeah, you're right, nothing he said was likely to change my mind, and i put that out there from the beginning. i make no apology for that. i also said right from the start that sniper would wait until it was absolutely clear he had to apologize, and he would only do it to save his ass from beign degreened. was i wrong?

he made the one post he absolutely had to make, and now he's going to go on giving his 'colleagues' the silent treatment, hoping it will all blow over.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
sniper,

did you or did you not give degen information from the mod forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nation, the short answer, is no.

Here is what I do know:

1. There have been many cases of Mod forum information being shared outside the Mod forum

2. It has always been my belief, that specific discussions in the Mod forum are private, like PMs and AIM conversations

3. Degen has been talking to several mods, I do not know who they are, with the exception of morgant, Pokeraddict, ElD and a couple of the other mods that mentioned knowing him personally, or otherwise interacting with him.

4. Degen is aware that I have defended him in the past

5. He's also received specific advice from me to clean up his act in the forums, based on my reading of his posts. Some issues that were raised in the mod forum, and some that were not.

6. He obviously, could not consistantly follow my advice to him, Although he did stay pretty clean for a part of last year (as morgant pointed out).

7. He has said nothing to me to indicate he is aware of what specific mods have posted. I think this is clear from the rediculous PMs he sent to some of the moderators.


Edit - Oh, I believe Degen is on vacation and does not yet know that he is banned. I have however, already been contacted by another active MMB poster, who also follows A/R discussion, who read PA's post there and wanted to know what was going on.

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]

In the other thread, Mat made a post saying that he really wanted Sniper's input. When daryn noted that he hadn't posted yet, sniper claimed that he had been busy outside 2+2. When it was demonstrated that this was false, he claimed that he had been busy reading thousands of posts in the mod forum to review the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, to me this just really sums up the totally different view point I am coming from. You bump a ~3 month old post on Wednesday, which originally asked Mods to comment on Sniper's problems. I didn't see it until about 24 hours later and it seemed to me that we were rehashing old stuff again. Then over two days it turned into what I view as a lynch mob until Mat started the new thread late Friday.

I don't know when Sniper read both threads. It took me a fricken hour to go back through the first one (and links) just to get a better feel for what all the ruckuss was about after I originally saw it and then made time to go back.

There are tons of times I'm posting/browsing 2+2 but don't visit this forum. I try to get in here and to ATF when I can, but it doesn't always happen. Maybe that's what was going on with Sniper this week with the original post and then with the new one this weekend.

You guys are so frothing at the mouth that you are having zero patience. How you expect to make thoughtful decisions when in that state is beyond me. The guy took less than 48 hours to make his post after Mat essentially asked him to and maybe even less in reality from when he saw it. Plus he PM'd Mat about putting together a lengthy and detailed response earlier.

Nation's post in Sniper's response thread just sums up this lack of patience IMO.

7:19
[ QUOTE ]
sniper,

did you or did you not give degen information from the mod forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

7:24
[ QUOTE ]

if he doesn't squash this today, there should be zero chance of him being green at the end of today. im tired of these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

7:35
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what the [censored], there is no excuse for this delay. sniper is deliberately dodging my question about leaking mod forum info to degen. i feel like i'm taking crazy pills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heaven forbid somone steps away from the discussion for 15 minutes. Sure, it's a legitimate question that Sniper should answer, but this sort of mentality is all I've seen since Wendesday.

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but I find this amazing. You guys won't be happy with anything short of his removal and this entire process is not the thoughtful, correct way to go about it IMO.

Re: Sniper
 

berge,

sniper just dropped his apology on the mod forum. you really think its not weird that instead of reading and responding for a bit, he takes off until now? if someone was talking about degreening me, i wouldnt just take off especially when i knew i was getting flak from people for leaving the discussion already.

Re: Sniper
 

Hell, I don't know what I would do nation.

Depends largely on what I've got going on outside 2+2 probably and the mood I'm in. One could sit there and see what gets stirred up and try to rapid fire respond or you could take a break and answer thoughtfully 4 hours later. The answer to your question isn't going to change.

Re: Sniper
 

Sniper

the people who seem out to get you also seem to be giving you the opportunity to respond. these past five days have been very stressful for me, only because I want to make the RIGHT decision.

The easy route was to have counted votes. Easy and right are starting to converge.

I'm taking the rest of the evening off from the forums. When I awake I will make a decision.

One way or another, I really do want to give heartfelt thanks to all of you who have taken so much time to give your views.


As an aside. If I were you (sniper) I would take a voluntary leave of absence from moderation. I would enjoy myself and in between moments of hedonistic pleasure, I would give some thought to whether or not moderating the forums is something worth returning to. From there, who knows.

I'm not pressuring you in any direction, mind you. It just seems to me that in order for you to stay on, it's going to take more than words to make everyone feel ok. Maybe you like tt's idea, I don't know. Perhaps there is some other compromise.

To make things easy for me, I'd like people in the anti-sniper camp to rest their case. I've heard you. The pro-sniper camp may have more to say, and I welcome their comments.

The rest of this discussion I hope to be led by sniper. Certainly, any discussion between sniper and those who disapprove of him are fair game. That's the point.

goodnight

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]

As an aside. If I were you (sniper) I would take a voluntary leave of absence from moderation. I would enjoy myself and in between moments of hedonistic pleasure, I would give some thought to whether or not moderating the forums is something worth returning to. From there, who knows.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good suggestion.

Re: Sniper
 

E,

I think you should be demodded for that irritating avatar.

Re: Sniper
 

ElD,

It looked much less irritating in the preview. Better?

Re: Sniper
 

E,

Nice.

Re: Sniper
 

A quick snapshot poll to gauge current feelings, without everyone having to rewrite stuff:

Re: Sniper
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pro-sniper camp may have more to say, and I welcome their comments.



[/ QUOTE ]

What is that I hear...



http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...op/cricket.jpg

Re: Sniper
 

Nick, others,

Chill out. If you read Mat's post you should know that at this point that's unproductive (though fairly humorous) and unneccesary.

Re: Sniper
 

Nick,

I agree with cit. Let's give Sniper some time to address the questions/concerns raised before jumping to any conclusions. I especially would love to hear his response to my comments.