3 commerce hands
 

1)

First hand is versus this guy who is apparently a cali regular but is not one of the pros (he was white!). He had some bling on, looked like the businessman type. Made some pretty helpless small bluffs but I hadnt really seen that much.

I raise KTo in MP to 140 (20-40) button calls, he calls in one of the blinds. 3 to the flop of 7c 7s 4c. He checks, I bet 300, button folds he calls.

Turn Kd. He checks, I bet out 860, he insta calls.

River is Tc and before I even intake the river card into my brain he fires out 1400 (insta fire). I??? (He has 10k behind I cover)

2)

CO I forget who it was, gene todd is on the button. I think of gene as tight and on the passive side. CO open limps, Gene todd limps on button, I raise AQo from the BB to 500 (50-100). Both of them call.

Flop Ac Qs 9c. I bet out 1400, they both call.

Turn is 7c. I check, CO checks, Gene todd bets out 3k with a shaky hand (I think he might shake often, not sure what it means). I have both covered, gene prolly has 20k and CO also has ~20k.

3)

UTG limps, CO limps, Button limps, I complete SB with K6o.

Flop comes 6c 4c 4s. I lead out 200 (20-40 again). Only the BB calls. Turn comes Jd. I bet out 550, he hesitates and calls. River comes 2d. I bet out 1200.

Thanks!

-Jason

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

1) Tough one. I think an argument can be made for all 3 options and I also think the decision is very player dependent. I think calling may be the worst option and am trying to find reasons to raise instead of fold but I'm not sure if I can find enough evidence to support it. [censored] it, it's only 20/40.. raise to $4000.

2) I fold pretty quickly against seemingly unknowns.

3) I like.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

1. call... i don't see any value in raising here.
2. meh, I'm on the fence between calling and reevaluating the river and folding... not sure which is correct.
3. I like the river bet, I think it will push him off J10c, QJc, etc.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

are these tourney hands or cash game? I assume tourney, but not sure if this matters.

1) I call here and expect to lose about 40% of the time.

2) so read dependant--- with no other info, I find a fold here.

3)Assume you don't have Kc. Like the play up to the river. not sure what the river bet is trying to accomplish. What do you think you can make him lay down? 88 maybe? i really don't think you can represent a 3 here.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

not sure if it matters, but i was not bluffing the river, am i just on the wrong planet here?

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

all cash hands

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

hand 1, fold; calling and praying for 65 seems a little thin

hand 2, tough spot, fold to shaky hands I guess

hand 3, why lead river? trying to push him off a 4? gl with that.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

ok, maybe it was a TWO WAY

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
not sure if it matters, but i was not bluffing the river, am i just on the wrong planet here?

[/ QUOTE ]
what hands that you beat call here? do you put him on a under pair or worse 6?

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

i honestly thought some of the time he calls me with a six, and some of the time he folds like 88, and some of the time he calls with a hand that has me owned. Obviously im not trying to push him off a 4, I felt like this guy would probably put in a raise here with a 4 on some street, but most good players will not so you have a good point.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

RickOSU,

Not sure if Strassa is contemplating raising in hand 1.

No way does villian have JTc in hand 3. Strasa's bet is for value I am assuming tying to represent a busted draw while getting paid by weaker 6's and A/big here.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

1. Raise a large amount > Fold > Call.
2. Fold.
3. I like.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

I figured #3 is for value slash a bit of a blocker against the Jc.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

can you not say stuff like NO WAY he has JTcc please without anything backing it up. That seems like a ridiculous claim to me.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

People really expect to be behind in hand one? Seems like a clear vraise to me, even at fullring. Very odd way to bluff or play a 7.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

if you dont mind me asking, what is he paying off with? He check called flop with Kx?

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Raise a large amount > Fold > Call.
2. Fold.
3. I like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im so fed up with [censored] like this man. How are you going to post Raise a large amount > Fold > Call. and not even explain yourself. FWIW, I would reverse the order there but Im not sure -- hence the post.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

what were the bet sizes relative to pot in first hand dude's helpless bluffs?

in 2 - who knows - like, if he's any good he shouldn't have biggish clubs there ever after limping behind a co open limp. he almost shouldn't have clubs at all as any 2 suited that are worth playing there should be raising pre, but eh, it's a tough spot. not a no brainer fold to me though.

i like 3 - not many live guys do much 2 way stuff, so if nothing else it's confusing.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

1- just fold. people don't fold flushes, especially not live, obviously. and he most definitely has a flush, no?

2-call, pot club rivers, c/r boat rivers, probably c/f blank rivers.

3-thin, obviously. i think it's good though. the more maniacal your image is the more it drifts from thin to totally fab

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

Sorry. I agree those words are to finite and/or carry negative conotation to them.

I guess what i was trying to say i that JTc would have been heard from by now. TP/FD seems like a great semibluff spot on this turn. It has plenty of value as is and it has outs to improve incase it is infact trailing.

Also, since I believe you are making this river bet for value (or let us say value>bluff) I can't imagine you thinking you are up against a hand that strong. You can't believe you are betting him off that hand right there to often. Maybe, but I have to figure if he is calling the turn (instead of raising) then he is doing his part in keeping the pot small resigning to call any reasonable bet. Getting 2.x-1 here I think he calls more often then not with this type hand.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

didnt pay that close attention, but they were like 400 into a 700ish and maybe a 500 into a 1k? He seemed to always act fast. he bet this river though SOOOOOO fast. I hardly saw the card before his chips hit the felt.

-Jason

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

Edit: crap, didnt see river was a club. Raising is pretty silly here.

[ QUOTE ]
if you dont mind me asking, what is he paying off with? He check called flop with Kx?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it would be helpful to know if you had the Kc.

I see it as he either has a K here or missed clubs.

Im not entirely sure what hes doing w/ AK/KQ/KJxx pf but this is a solid flop for him to bluff-peel OOP with. Possibly 6 outs, bluff equity, possibly 15 if holding a hand like KJ/KQcc.
Anyway, if hes bluffing or has a really strong hand he grossely misplays the turn. Any sort of check raise here is so much better than a riv 1/2pot donk if he wants to get value w/ a 7 or 44. I may be reading too far into the instacall it but it seems like the K helped his hand and he abandoned any plan to bluff and wants to showdown.

River just looks like a vbet/blocker to me. If its a bluff he has to figure youre looking him up since hes not really representing any real strength, but you said he made bad bluffs before so cant rule out suited connecting clubs.

Not entirely sure what Kxs he'll talk himself into calling a raise with but I think youre missing value by not raising top two and letting him make a decision. Also, I dont think the odds of him 3b ai here are too high -- youve shown a great deal of strength w/ bet,bet, raise and like I said I dont think hes super strong by his turn play.

Edit: crap, didnt see river was a club. Raising is pretty silly here.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Raise a large amount > Fold > Call.
2. Fold.
3. I like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im so fed up with [censored] like this man. How are you going to post Raise a large amount > Fold > Call. and not even explain yourself. FWIW, I would reverse the order there but Im not sure -- hence the post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are behind here almost every time, so calling is not an option.

This is obviously read dependent, but based on what you described of villain's quick bet on the river, plus the size of the bet, I really think this is a blocking bet that will fold to a large river raise. Unless he's a huge calling station, in which case it's a fold.

And I completely disagree with whoever said raising the river would be for value - raising the river is obviously a bluff here.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

i didnt have the Kc

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

#1- If you think he's bluffing call. Obviously you beat nothing.

#2- I think Gene plays a set faster on the flop. I probably go with it and raise, calling a push. I put him on A-J or A-9 or 99-- possibly JTs if he's that weak tight. I think folding here is weak, and not raising is also weak. As far as shaky hands go, he probably needs to blaze up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

#3- All the draws missed. Why not check and call a river bet.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

my vote.....
1. call.
2. fold.
3. i'd prob check turn and fold to a bet. given that you bet turn, i think the bet on the end is OK. maybe an uncomfortable check-call is better? hard to say.

ba

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

Hand 1:
This is really dirty, but I think I puke and call. He clearly likes his hand, and a donkey donkey smooth call, smooth call-- lead is usually a nutted hand. I would expect to see a 7 or a flush like 80% of the time, and some random block/bet bluff a part of the time. The only reason I would call is because his bet is smallish relative to the pot size, and I would think he would have to consider his bet size more if he actually hit the flush.

2. I don't know who gene todd is, but I call, and reevaluate river. I would be very cautious in this hand, but there is too good of a chance you are ahead of AxJc, and who knows what his overlimping range is on the button (any two???). The shaky hand is player dependent (sometimes it means strength, sometimes weakness depending on the player--that's how it works live, it's funny). CRing is very silly, chk-folding to such a small bet is not bad, but kind of weak because your hand still has a high % chance of being good. The only thing that worries me in this hand is that he was the overcaller. People live don't usually overcall with one pair type hands, it's usually draws or stronger made hands, so that would tilt his range to the draw/Q9 in my mind a bit more.

3. I don't get this one. Are you bluff/block/value betting? I've started to do this a bit online, and it usually works a lot better as a bluff. I probably check this turn, your hand is not that great and maybe you can snap a bluff on the river. I'm trying to figure out if betting is better than checking on this river, and I think it is, if only for the fact that he folds 77-1010 SOME of the time, although not often. Weird bet, but I guess it's ok.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

1. i may call hand one bc im a station but most hands that take his line, c,c flop (esp for a donk) are strictly limited to trips/sd/fd, in light of your description i still cant tell if he is capable of 1/2 pot donk as a bluff or not but regardless you seem beat-he doesnt vbet a random k here bc he has showdown value...so you could just look him up for fun but a fold is prolly good here (raise is awful)

2. no hands hes repping make sense with his pf play unless he is the most passive/weak tight person ever...also 2 of hands that you beat but that are semi strong (a,7 a,9 q,9) prolly get a raise in on the flop...so to me nothing makes sense here...id call and re eval the river (is Gene Todd the type of guy who would he pay off a rivered boat with a flush?)

3. is your riv bet blocking/trying to induce some sick bluff raise? if so i guess those plays are read dependent but i think the default line here is check/call...you have reasonably good showdown value and he could deff bet a missed draw in that spot, i think any 6 checks except the thinest v-bet ever from a6, also if he does have a jx,cc i think you would have heard from him on the turn, but, lets say hes super passive-his vbet with a j on the riv is about the same amount as your bet anyway, so i dont see what you loose here from a check and you do gain from it (unless you think a wose 6pays you off but doesnt bet-seems unlikely)... so check/call is my riv line

wow i dunno how i wrote an essay on those three hands but there you have, sorry its too long/rambling,

rand

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
#1- If you think he's bluffing call. Obviously you beat nothing.

#2- I think Gene plays a set faster on the flop. I probably go with it and raise, calling a push. I put him on A-J or A-9 or 99-- possibly JTs if he's that weak tight. I think folding here is weak, and not raising is also weak. As far as shaky hands go, he probably needs to blaze up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

#3- All the draws missed. Why not check and call a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2, didnt see that flush got there. As played easy fold... why not bet turn and fold to a raise ?

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

ha, dlp i dont think ive ever agreed with someone more, looks like you posted while i was still typing...

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

maybe this doesn't matter but in hand 2 do you have Qc?

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

IMO it definitely matters and I was wondering the same thing..

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

also, not sure if this is way off, but in hand one if hes the BB (or maybe even sb) can he have 56s (busted str8, no clubs) a lot of the time? or rather, enough to make this call easily profitable combined with the fact this is a typical donk bet, and normally means flush but could easily be a strange block bet as well.

also immediatly upon lookin at hand 3 i liked it. but not as a bluff at all, so liek strassa said, if thats what people think it is maybe im crazy.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
are these tourney hands or cash game? I assume tourney, but not sure if this matters.

[/ QUOTE ]
lollerskatercopterthings.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

Jason,
In hand 1, how often do you think he's peeling the flop with overcards? If that is possible, it seems that he might have a good K and wants to get value on the river, and doesn't want you to chk behind. Another possibility is a small/med pair calling for value on flop and turn that turned into a bluff on the river.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

I'd call in the first one, fold the second one and I like the third (except for PF of course). I have no idea why dlpnyc is saying AxJc is being a likely hand for #2.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

I fold 1 since you only beat 65 or a very strangely played hand, call 2 with the Qc, fold without, and I think hand 3 is fine

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

1) meh really close, raising, calling, and folding are all ok, but im more prone to raise a 2k bet than a 1400 bet. I think i probably call slightly more than i fold w/ given info.

2) I call turn and call most rivs w/ reads u gave... gene likes to 2 barrell in these spots imo, altho your obviously going to be shown a flush quite a bit. I really xpet to see Jt 1 or no clubs here a ton.

3) i like this kindve thing lot more online (where people realise that tt should be the same as 22). I still dont mind it but i think it might be a little too thin to do regularly (vgood occasionally though for metagame etc)

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

I call one, i guess call two to reevalutate (folding to a blank river bet from him after thinking for a while and checking), and I like the way you played hand three.

Re: 3 commerce hands
 

I think hand 1 and 3 have been discussed thoroughly so hand 2 deserves a little bit more thought. I think checking the turn is fine here although I'd prefer betting out again. As played, I would check-raise the turn and assuming other player folds, push any non-club river. I think it's very clear Gene doesn't have the nut flush here (I don't see him limping Button with Kxcc, he'd be raising KJc KTc etc) and he'll have a tough time calling a c/r and a push without the nuts. He's also the type who's willing to part with medium flushes, which gives this line a high success rate. Of course, this line is based on the assumption that you don't have the Qc in this hand because I think you would have mentioned it if you did.