Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

I mostly lurk on this board, and occasionally post. I have one question, though:

Why is it true that there are consistently threads regarding aspects of AC or libertarianism? Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?

I don't know...it just feels like there should be an AC/Libertarian FAQ to head some of the clutter off at the pass.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

The FAQ idea has been proposed any number of times, and there even was one in the works at one point. I'm not really sure what happened to it.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

I nominate Shake as the most competent scholar to compile an FAQ of AC. Even though he can be a twit sometimes, he's got a feel of the real deal about him, unlike many of his pseudo-intellectual poser comrades.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

The problem with a FAQ is that the people for whom it is intended (lurkers who suddenly try to debunk Austrian theory with poorly thought-out, previously discussed examples) are too impetuous to read the FAQ in the first place.

EDIT: as to why these ideas arouse so much discomfort, I think it's because whenever two people pit vastly different economic systems against each other, one's advocacy of system A appears like an act of aggression against the supporter of system B. When you are a strong believer of individual sovereignty who thinks that aggression against your private property should be swiftly punished, it makes it very hard to be civil with a socialist who is trying to do what you would see as aggression. And vice-versa; I'm sure that liberals dislike hearing support for a system that denies goods, services and equality to those whom they believe need it more.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

Shake was trying to put a FAQ together, but Iron decided that no post by Shake would be stickied, no matter how necessary to the forum, so it was abandoned.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?

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The basic idea behind ACism and to a lesser extent libertarianism is that taxation is theft and that theft is immoral. Most people like to believe that what they're doing is "good." In fact, that's the whole idea behind many people's support of stuff like universal health care and the like is that it's a "good" thing. Obviously when people point out that they're using "evil" methods to accomplish their "good" thing, they're going to be more than a little aggitated. People don't like to be shown the negative consequences of their behavior and most people have convinced themselves that taxation isn't even theft at all, despite the fact that it very obviously is, so when it's pointed out to them it makes them very, VERY uncomfortable to have reality poking into their beliefs.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

I think there are two main reasons why some people have very strong reactions to the concepts of libertarianism.

1. Most people are sheep and hate responsibility. The very idea of a system that leaves them responsible for themselves is frightening to most people. To be fair, most people *are* fairly incompetent.

2. Most people so completely misunderstand the theories that they imagine the incompetents would starve under such a system, and they can't abide the thought of it.

So basically, the strong reactions are either "oh my god I'd starve in that system" or "oh my god somebody else might starve in that system".

Both of these reactions stem from the fact that the vast majority of people can't or won't take responsibility for themselves.

natedogg

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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When you are a strong believer of individual sovereignty who thinks that aggression against your private property should be swiftly punished, it makes it very hard to be civil with a socialist who is trying to do what you would see as aggression. And vice-versa; I'm sure that liberals dislike hearing support for a system that denies goods, services and equality to those whom they believe need it more.

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The sovereignty of the individual was precisely why the republican form of government of the United States of America was established.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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When you are a strong believer of individual sovereignty who thinks that aggression against your private property should be swiftly punished, it makes it very hard to be civil with a socialist who is trying to do what you would see as aggression. And vice-versa; I'm sure that liberals dislike hearing support for a system that denies goods, services and equality to those whom they believe need it more.

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The sovereignty of the individual was precisely why the republican form of government of the United States of America was established.

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The form of government enshrined in the Constitution that is now almost completely ignored by the federal government? The Founding Fathers made a very good attempt at building a government to protect the invidual, but ultimately, they failed.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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When you are a strong believer of individual sovereignty who thinks that aggression against your private property should be swiftly punished, it makes it very hard to be civil with a socialist who is trying to do what you would see as aggression. And vice-versa; I'm sure that liberals dislike hearing support for a system that denies goods, services and equality to those whom they believe need it more.

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The sovereignty of the individual was precisely why the republican form of government of the United States of America was established.

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The form of government enshrined in the Constitution that is now almost completely ignored by the federal government?

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No, the form of government established through the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution which is now ignored by the federal government only to the extent that the sovereign power in this county, i.e. the People, permit it.

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The Founding Fathers made a very good attempt at building a government to protect the invidual, but ultimately, they failed.

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They did not fail. Had a system of "anarcho-capitalist" plutocracy been put in place instead, we might as well have never fought the Revolutionary War.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?

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The basic idea behind ACism and to a lesser extent libertarianism is that taxation is theft and that theft is immoral. Most people like to believe that what they're doing is "good." In fact, that's the whole idea behind many people's support of stuff like universal health care and the like is that it's a "good" thing. Obviously when people point out that they're using "evil" methods to accomplish their "good" thing, they're going to be more than a little aggitated. People don't like to be shown the negative consequences of their behavior and most people have convinced themselves that taxation isn't even theft at all, despite the fact that it very obviously is, so when it's pointed out to them it makes them very, VERY uncomfortable to have reality poking into their beliefs.

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Again, this is the sort of thing that makes people dislike you folks. You act as if nobody had ever noticed that there is taxation, until ACists finally pointed it out.

The fact that you don't seem to understand is that most people are perfectly fine paying and levying taxes, so it's not really horrific or "evil" or whatever else you'd like to claim it is.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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the form of government established through the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution

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The Declaration of Independence didn't establish any government.

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ignored by the federal government only to the extent that the sovereign power in this county, i.e. the People, permit it.

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Protecting us from the excesses of the people was part of the design, and it has failed. Regardless, the sovereignty of the individual is no longer protected, and that was the point.

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Had a system of "anarcho-capitalist" plutocracy been put in place instead, we might as well have never fought the Revolutionary War.

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How would establishing AC retractively make a war that's already happened not happen? Also, what we have is plutocracy and AC isn't! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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The fact that you don't seem to understand is that most people are perfectly fine paying and levying taxes, so it's not really horrific or "evil" or whatever else you'd like to claim it is.

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No, you're missing the point entirely. I know perfectly well that most (at least many anyway) people are fine with it. It's not them that are being tyrannized. A person is entirely capable of being fine with being taxed while still opposing the taxation of those who are unwilling. Hell, I wouldn't mind being taxed if the government were within its Constitutional bounds, and I don't really care much about local taxes, but I would STILL oppose taxation for the evil that it is because there are others, who make up a minority, who are still being oppressed. That's what it's all about. Maybe it's more accurate to say that ACism is about being against the tyranny of the majority than against taxation... Being "fine with paying taxes" doesn't give you the right to tax those who aren't! Opposition to taxation isn't about wanting or not wanting to pay taxes, it's about resisting tyranny.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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the form of government established through the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution

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The Declaration of Independence didn't establish any government.

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It did better. It established the power that established the government.

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ignored by the federal government only to the extent that the sovereign power in this county, i.e. the People, permit it.

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Protecting us from the excesses of the people was part of the design, and it has failed. Regardless, the sovereignty of the individual is no longer protected, and that was the point.

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It has underperformed somewhat because those it was intended to protect have themselves failed to assert their lawful power in preference to amusements and so forth. Fortunately, the original legal framework has not yet been "anarchized" but remains in place and ready to be employed as intended.

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Had a system of "anarcho-capitalist" plutocracy been put in place instead, we might as well have never fought the Revolutionary War.

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How would establishing AC retractively make a war that's already happened not happen? Also, what we have is plutocracy and AC isn't! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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No, what we have now is a struggle between a would-be plutocracy and the de jure sovereign power of the People. Your system of "anarcho-capitalism" would turn over the keys to the kingdom without a fight.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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No, what we have now is a struggle between a would-be plutocracy and the de jure sovereign power of the People. Your system of "anarcho-capitalism" would turn over the keys to the kingdom without a fight.

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No, it would yank the keys away entirely. The power of corporations today is due entirely to their symbiotic relationship with the government.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why is it true that there are consistently threads regarding aspects of AC or libertarianism? Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?


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Because they are very naive, appealing to the uneducated and very dangerous.

Balls
 

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Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome? Why do these ideologies arouse so much discomfort?

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not comfortable with them because I prefer briefs over boxer shorts.

Mickey Brausch

Re: Balls
 

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Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome? Why do these ideologies arouse so much discomfort?

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not comfortable with them because I prefer briefs over boxer shorts.

Mickey Brausch

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Yes, you are right, I forgot about that! All the more reasons. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS I prefer boxers and have for many decades although in my youth I did like briefs.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why is it true that there are consistently threads regarding aspects of AC or libertarianism? Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?


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For the most part people aren't logically consistent, which is understandable due to our long history of evolution as animals tied by social and emotional bonds compared to a shorter history of having the ability to articulate logical thought. Emotional and social attachments begin so much younger than rational, logical thought and this tends to make people think that what they feel is true and then turn to logical thought to find justifications for why its true. This pattern naturally leads to a lot of inconsistencies from a logical standpoint, while the primary mover toward ACism on this board (lets call him B Dog, no thats to obvious, Boro D) demands logical consistency from himself and those who challenge his positions. Long story short he ends up attacking the root of their beliefs which are emotional and not based on logic. For example if you start with the idea that capitalism is based upon the exploitation of the worker then you can (from that point) logically show how capitalism is negative for the worker, however it is this underlying assumption that (a good) AC/libertarian poster attacks. Having the basis of your argument attacked can feel very personal and insulting, even more so when you can't properly articulate a defense since the "truth" of that position is rooted in an emotional attachment which is far harder to express than A therefore B therefore C, and likewise harder to demonstrate as well.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

Because they are too idealistic and flat out wouldn't work.

And by work I mean "result in a government/society that most people thought was really good"

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why is it true that there are consistently threads regarding aspects of AC or libertarianism? Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?


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Because they are very naive, appealing to the uneducated and very dangerous.

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Just because you can't hold your weight in a debate against any ACist or libertarian on this board doesn't give you an excuse to insult them. Maybe you should just stick to arguing the thiests in SMP.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

HMK welcome back my man!

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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The fact that you don't seem to understand is that most people are perfectly fine paying and levying taxes, so it's not really horrific or "evil" or whatever else you'd like to claim it is.

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So because group A is OK with action X being forced on them group B should be OK with it? Your justification is an appeal to majority fallacy.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why do either of these ideologies [ACism and libertarianism] arouse so much discomfort

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Because everyone deep down thinks that if the world was run the way they think it should everyone would be better off.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Why is it true that there are consistently threads regarding aspects of AC or libertarianism? Why do either of these ideologies arouse so much discomfort as to be put to the test at all times?


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Because they are very naive, appealing to the uneducated and very dangerous.

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Midge. "Anyone who doesn't think like I do is a neanderthal, a child preadator, and pony-hater. And a terrorist."

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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The fact that you don't seem to understand is that most people are perfectly fine paying and levying taxes, so it's not really horrific or "evil" or whatever else you'd like to claim it is.

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So because group A is OK with action X being forced on them group B should be OK with it? Your justification is an appeal to majority fallacy.

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Most people LIKE creamy peanut butter. So not only should crunchy be outlawed, everyone should be FORCED to eat creamy. For the Horde!!!

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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I'm sure that liberals dislike hearing support for a system that denies goods, services and equality to those whom they believe need it more.

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You've been gone too long. No libertarians or ACists here have ever advocated a system that denies goods and services to anyone. But you knew that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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The sovereignty of the individual was precisely why the republican form of government of the United States of America was established.

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This is good stuff. Intentions are all that matters. "Don't worry sir, it's OK! I'm shooting you in the head because of the soverignty of the individual! Rest easy."

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

Hardly. Due to my sovereign right to bear arms, I dropped your ass before you could finish talking.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Hardly. Due to my sovereign right to bear arms, I dropped your ass before you could finish talking.

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Perfect. So you're openly advocating a total free-for-all? Wild west (movie style, of course) here we come!

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

Where have I heard that "free-for-all" line before? This isn't the first time I've noticed the gun-grabber logic just below the surface of AC.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

One problem with AC/Libertarianism is the idea of man as a rational being. ACers and libertarians often seem to believe that the oppression of the state interferes with man's inherently rational nature and that the lifting of the veil of statism will result in a New Enlightenment of super-rational thought. I am a bit more skeptical about anything like that happening, although I won't go so far as to endorse a Hobbesian view of man as brutish, nasty, and short. The philosophy seems stacked upon the faulty foundations of flawed axiomatic beliefs about basic human nature.

Plus, they have horrible taste in literature. I mean really, Ayn Rand? Anyone who cites The Fountainhead as his or her favorite book becomes immediately suspect.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Plus, they have horrible taste in literature. I mean really, Ayn Rand? Anyone who cites The Fountainhead as his or her favorite book becomes immediately suspect.

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Ayn Rand, in whose inner circle was one Alan Greenspan.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Where have I heard that "free-for-all" line before? This isn't the first time I've noticed the gun-grabber logic just below the surface of AC.

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Uhm... you're the one who made the comparison.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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One problem with AC/Libertarianism is the idea of man as a rational being. ACers and libertarians often seem to believe that the oppression of the state interferes with man's inherently rational nature and that the lifting of the veil of statism will result in a New Enlightenment of super-rational thought. I am a bit more skeptical about anything like that happening, although I won't go so far as to endorse a Hobbesian view of man as brutish, nasty, and short. The philosophy seems stacked upon the faulty foundations of flawed axiomatic beliefs about basic human nature.

Plus, they have horrible taste in literature. I mean really, Ayn Rand? Anyone who cites The Fountainhead as his or her favorite book becomes immediately suspect.

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And you want these unenlightened irrational people to be voting for someone to hold enormous life or death power over you?

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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Plus, they have horrible taste in literature. I mean really, Ayn Rand? Anyone who cites The Fountainhead as his or her favorite book becomes immediately suspect.

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I think the people who cite Ayn Rand as "their favorite" are those who have their entire lifeview shifted by reading her. Personally, I was a libertarian before I read her and while I enjoyed her books fine, I also found them too preachy and repetitive.

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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And you want these unenlightened irrational people to be voting for someone to hold enormous life or death power over you?

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This argument, while obvious and true, never works, as the people it's used against seem to believe the system weeds out the unenlightened irrational behavior. "Most people are stupid, but if we let them vote, their stupidity cancels out and they make good decisions." Something like that. And no, it makes no sense to me either. :P

(and then they complain when people like Bush get into office)

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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And you want these unenlightened irrational people to be voting for someone to hold enormous life or death power over you?

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This argument, while obvious and true, never works, as the people it's used against seem to believe the system weeds out the unenlightened irrational behavior. "Most people are stupid, but if we let them vote, their stupidity cancels out and they make good decisions." Something like that. And no, it makes no sense to me either. :P

(and then they complain when people like Bush get into office)

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Well I guess we are in paradise then. Or if not paradise we will be when the government finally makes enough laws and regulations and has enought enforcers...

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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"Most people are stupid, but if we let them vote, their stupidity cancels out and they make good decisions."

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The rationale of AC: "Immense fortunes tend to be expansively avaristic, but if we let the logic of the marketplace where such entities have home field advantage be the controlling influence in society, they won't act in any exploitive self-interest at the expense of the general prosperity, but rather their individual greediness will cancel out leaving the average person a winner."

Re: Why Is AC/Libertarianism So Bothersome?
 

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"Most people are stupid, but if we let them vote, their stupidity cancels out and they make good decisions."

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The rationale of AC: "Immense fortunes tend to be expansively avaristic, but if we let the logic of the marketplace where such entities have home field advantage be the controlling influence in society, they won't act in any exploitive self-interest at the expense of the general prosperity, but rather their individual greediness will cancel out leaving the average person a winner."

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It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.