Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Villian is 20/5/4.5. I don't know what he thinks of me.

edit I should of added that I came over the top of him in a similiar situation - that pot was unraised though.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $807.27
UTG+1: $474.95
CO: $380.95
Button: $70.75
SB: $123.05
BB: $121.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $9</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($45, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $35</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $95</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero ?

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

I'd make a smallish 3-bet and get the rest in on the turn. $250 should work.

With normal stack sizes, I would call and c/r most turns.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Al Money, I think you can stretch this out over the turn/river more even at eff stack ~240BBs. This hand is going to be great for discussion about which stack size you move to b3b flops vs call and c/r turns. This one is definitely towards this margin. As is I like b3b because he has to suspect something if you hammer on all streets even if he has overs. $225-275 are all nice.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Assuming you are tag, villian would be pretty dumb to play for stacks here without 33 or 99 considering you limped. I raise preflop. What is your range for limping here.... 22-66?

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Raise pre-flop.

I'd probably 3-bet the flop, maybe even push, representing a big draw.

A 20/5 player rarely has a set here, and he'll usually go broke with AA/KK.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't full ring.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Duh?

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

There were reason not to raise 22 PF UTG in thos spot.
- I'm running 26/18/6 for the session - pretty aggro image.
- shortstacks are very loose VP$IP&gt;55%.

To me these two things add up to a small chance at winning the pot if I don't catch a flop.

Lucky

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

No

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Duh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't going to find many people that agree with you here. Open limping has no place in 6 max.

I like a b/3b here. Try to get as much as possible before a third spade hits. Bad players will always slowdown if the flush just got made.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Duh?

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't bad advice. Its not FR. I raise ALL pairs from ALL positions as its usually the best play for quite a few reasons.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is open-limping 22 UTG at 6m better than open raising?

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

cbboy, please explain the reasons, I'd like to know.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
cbboy, please explain the reasons, I'd like to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

You take initiative in the hand so it will be easier to win the hand PF or on the flop with a c-bet. Playing the hand like this, all you are doing is hoping to flop a set as that is pretty much the only way you can win the hand.

You create a bigger pot if/when you flop a set so it will make it easier to get the money in the middle.

I'm sure there are a few more reasons, but I'm not thinking too clearly right now as I'm pretty tired.

Oh- another reason is that open limping UTG looks ugly and is fishy! lol.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is open-limping 22 UTG at 6m better than open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

It might not be better generally, but you have to take the table and your image under consideration. At this particular table there are many loose players (including 2 loose shortstacks) - look at how much play UTG+1 got on his pfr.

My point is if I raise UTG from this spot I'm likely going to get multiple callers (and probably not UTG+1-cause he's tight), including the loose shortstacks. In this situation c-betting the flop is just spew - particulary since they are probably already getting sick of me raising already.

Lucky

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is open-limping 22 UTG at 6m better than open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

It might not be better generally, but you have to take the table and your image under consideration. At this particular table there are many loose players (including 2 loose shortstacks) - look at how much play UTG+1 got on his pfr.

My point is if I raise UTG from this spot I'm likely going to get multiple callers (and probably not UTG+1-cause he's tight), including the loose shortstacks. In this situation c-betting the flop is just spew - particulary since they are probably already getting sick of me raising already.

Lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said that if you get multiple callers PF that you have to make a c-bet on the flop. And whats wrong with getting multiple callers? That would make the pot big for the times you flop a set.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. I'm not a big fan of open limping ANY pair in ANY position.

I think I probably call and lead turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad advice. Open limping has it's place...esp. with small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is open-limping 22 UTG at 6m better than open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

It might not be better generally, but you have to take the table and your image under consideration. At this particular table there are many loose players (including 2 loose shortstacks) - look at how much play UTG+1 got on his pfr.

My point is if I raise UTG from this spot I'm likely going to get multiple callers (and probably not UTG+1-cause he's tight), including the loose shortstacks. In this situation c-betting the flop is just spew - particulary since they are probably already getting sick of me raising already.

Lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said that if you get multiple callers PF that you have to make a c-bet on the flop. And whats wrong with getting multiple callers? That would make the pot big for the times you flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well - one of the main reasons to raise is so you have initiate in the hand have the possibility to win it on the flop with a C-bet. That is just not likely to happen in this spot. Furthermore - as fishy as some of these guys are (not UTG+1) there is a good chance of getting their stacks (or a substantial portion thereof) in a unraised pot if I were to catch a set.

Everyone is so focussed on the PF - it is a no brainer for me. I'm liable to limp or raise with all kinds of stuff depending on table conditions and image considerations. I'm more interested in comments on the post-flop.

Lucky

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

raise PF.

the flop you can do alot of things. Had the board been a bit drier, I think this is an easy call. It is possible that villan could be c/r-ing with AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something like that. I would raise here to $250 and shove a turn. I can see calling and shoving a turn though.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

also, I would full pot the flop. And PF is pretty bad...you should be raising to build a pot if anything else (vs. UTG+1).

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
And PF is pretty bad...you should be raising to build a pot if anything else (vs. UTG+1).

[/ QUOTE ]

This, I think, is an important point about pre-flop. Other than the reasons mentioned for raising pre-flop, another very important reason is because you're deep, and there are two other players at the table with deepish stacks. Even if you typically don't open raise small PP's pre-flop (even though you should be), the deep stacks really make not raising this pre-flop even worse.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Does everyone seriously just look at their hand and decide that "OMG, PP, I GOTS TO RAISE". I'd probably raise just cuz UTG+1 and CO are deep with me, but if the table is playing loose and CO or UTG are tough players, raising this hand isn't that amazing, even more so with loose calling station short stacks. I don't think limping is awesome, but I think raising is meh in this spot. I'd just fold it unless I felt CO or UTG+1 were willing to felt to light postflop(which by the way is unlikely, cuz at best we hit bottom set and are the preflop aggresor, so they probably only get their stacks in with oversets or big draws, not just overpairs). Fwiw, I wouldn't 3 bet here. I think I'd call and lead half pot on turn or something of that matter. He's got AA/KK almost everytime and might fold that to a 3 bet but won't to a smaller type lead on turn.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
And PF is pretty bad...you should be raising to build a pot if anything else (vs. UTG+1).

[/ QUOTE ]

This, I think, is an important point about pre-flop. Other than the reasons mentioned for raising pre-flop, another very important reason is because you're deep, and there are two other players at the table with deepish stacks. Even if you typically don't open raise small PP's pre-flop (even though you should be), the deep stacks really make not raising this pre-flop even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enough with the pre-flop-raise stuff already! Clearly it would have been better to raise given the way the hand played out. That said, the way the hand played out was just one possible path out of many (one I would have weighted pretty low by frequency). For most of the ways this hand would of played out raising pf was wrong. I really believe this.

I have no issues with raising small pp - it just makes a whole lot less sense with fishy players acting behind because there is very little chance of winning the pot without a set if I did raise and an good-excellent change of playing a moderate-big pot if I were to hit a set - particulary because they probably think I'm full of sh.t (note my 26/18/6.75 stats for the 500 hand session).

I was just reading the CTS well thread and he talks about tightening up pf raising standards from the CO when the button is a fish. I think this situation is somewhat similar.

Lucky

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

I agree with lucky :/ &lt;3

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise PF.

the flop you can do alot of things. Had the board been a bit drier, I think this is an easy call. It is possible that villan could be c/r-ing with AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something like that. I would raise here to $250 and shove a turn. I can see calling and shoving a turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]

def raise 22 UTG-BTN

orange, flop play was B,R,hero? instead of c/r, but AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is still an equally likely holding. Why hasn't anyone discussed stack sizes yet? By limping in pf and not 3-betting pf, the only hand that could be betting this strong with these kinds of stacks is a set. Even an unthinking villain would have alarms going off on the flop if you push it to $250. I'm much more in favor of calling and c/r turn for this reason.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

I call and c/r turn.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I was just reading the CTS well thread and he talks about tightening up pf raising standards from the CO when the button is a fish. I think this situation is somewhat similar. [ QUOTE ]


Link?
for those who say advocate a PF raise, if CO's stack were $70, would that change your mind?

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

Why is everyone so hellbent on raising 22 UTG? If people at the table suck and are generally passive, limping is fine.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

i did mention pot building in the pf statement in my 2nd post.

i did misread the post, i think that calling/doing something on the turn is an option as is 3-betting. this deep, i dont mind 3-betting to $250 or calling and leading the turn.

Re: Deep (how to get the money in?)
 

I didn't read most of the thread so I apologize if I repeat what others said. I like to flat call this raise, and lead any non spade turn for about $130, I'm sure this will get him to shove a wide range of hands including flush draws. Or if he's gunshy about getting in this deep he'll flat call with most overpairs and draws. In that case I bet turn and put him in on any river including spades.