Observant donk tips my hand
 

What recourse does one really have when somebody at the table who is NOT in the hand makes observations out loud about physical tells? I had this happen to me last Saturday in a $1/$2 game. I had just put a player in for his last $45 and he was contemplating a call. He did NOT notice the tell, because when it was pointed out, he insta-folded.

After the player mucked, I let me emotion get the best of me and I lashed out at the player who made the observation. She really didn't have a clue how to bet or value hands, but she was really pretty good at watching people. Anyway, likely because of my tone, she became defiant and wouldn't even acknowledge that she had influenced the hand. I had to prod the dealer just to get him to inform the player of the rules.

I'm not even sure at this point she understood the correlation between her observation and what it meant about my hand, but my opponent sure did.

The whole incident really steamed me and I was playing sub-optimal poker for about the next hour - not really concentrating. I feel like not only did the donk cost me $45 by tipping my hand, but she also got rewarded when I called one of those "I know better than to call" bets from her later on the less than pot-odds-correct chance that it would bust her off the table and get her out of my face.

I'm thinking maybe asking for a table change would have been a good idea. Any other suggestions? I'm normally pretty easy-going at the table, but this was just so over the line (from my perspective anyway) that I didn't handle it well.

Question Two: What if I am seated with this same player again? Just ignore the history? What if history repeats? We really did not get along at all that night from that point and I was tempted to share my observations of her with the table to make my point. To tell the truth, I probably would have, but it would have been too instructional for her and I wanted her to bust out and go home - which she eventually did.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

False-tell and show her the nut low when she folds.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

The tell was a quickened pulse rate. It's a little hard to fake, but I actually tried that by letting myself get angry all over again. I didn't have the nut low, just a marginal hand that I didn't want seeing any more action. The problem is that this was the very next hand when she actually had a hand.

She was a very dangerous player to bluff and she had position on me. I don't think she folded to a single c-bet all night (TP-crap-K, 3rd pair, draw....all good enough for her to call). I eventually decided to make a smaller c-bet and if I got heads up with her bluff the turn since she clearly wanted to see 4 cards before she would go away. This worked better. I couldn't show her the bluff since I finally found one that would work.

Maybe instead of a table change, a seat change to her left would work. She was eventually felted, but it would have been much more satisfying if I was the one raking her chips.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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The tell was a quickened pulse rate.

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She saw your wrist pulsating quicker? I don't understand how this in and of itself is a visible tell...

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

More likely the neck. It's kinda like the shaky hands tell. If you see a vein on somebody's forehead or neck throbbing, you know they have a monster or at least they think they do.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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More likely the neck. It's kinda like the shaky hands tell. If you see a vein on somebody's forehead or neck throbbing, you know they have a monster or at least they think they do.

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I've never seen/heard of this tell...I don't think I'm observant enough to catch it. I'll stick to my obvious stare down vs. avoiding eye contact and such.

In any case, I don't think it's worth yelling at another player. Simply point it out to her nicely (she'll be more receptive), and ask the dealer to iterate the rules as necessary in future pots. If necessary, call the floor if the same player continues despite warnings.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

Doyle talks about this one (I think in Supersystem, but it might have been an article) as one of the most reliable tells because it's so hard to fake.

I actually apologized to the player later for the way I handled it. She in turn said that she was sorry "...that you thought it affected the play". I didn't say anything, but that pissed me off more. That wasn't an apology. She was clearly saying it was my issue. Fact is, the guy was contemplating a call, she called out the tell and he mucked quickly. I was really happy to see her AA get cracked a couple of hands later.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

You go on tilt far too easily. You need to relax.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

you should stick to the internet if people like this bug you in B&M.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

Its a good thing my hands shake when I have the nuts... as well as when I have jack [censored]. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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What recourse does one really have when somebody at the table who is NOT in the hand makes observations out loud about physical tells?

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Recourse?

Do a little light reading.

I had one guy railbirding the game I was dealing last night speak up in the middle of the hand and try to give advice to a player yet to act with cards in his hand. Only thing you can do is try to rationalize with the offender and allow them to realize just how wrong it is what they are doing.

Turning emotional will get you no where. Some people just don't care, and will never stop being dumb and throwing their own opinion into the game when it isn't asked for and isn't wanted (or allowed). If it happens repeatedly, talk to the floor, it's their job to handle these matters.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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You go on tilt far too easily. You need to relax.

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Probably. I've been playing B&M regularly for about a year and a half and I've run into all types - even the ones that try to get in your head and tilt you. I don't mind:
* table coaches - Anyone who assumes they are smarter than me gives me an advantage
* donkeys who suckout - without them, we wouldn't have donkeys who pay off
* dealers who make mistakes - they're human

This one was just different. Maybe it was a mistake. Like I said earlier, I should have handled it differently, but she might as well have pulled chips off my stack and handed them to the other player. It's hard enough playing your opponents, much less your opponents plus whoever wants to chime in with information.

On reflection, if I have to play her again, I'm going to seat-change to her left. Don't know why I wouldn't want to play against a weak player. In the mean time, I'll keep working on that false shaky hands tell.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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Do a little light reading.

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I'm already the chatty one at the table. It's my personality. Adding a book might be dangerous! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

I think she was in violation of the rules and could be thrown out of the card room. I would call the floor over and explain what happened.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

Don't get emotional. Stay calm and logical. It's only one hand in your lifetime, it's not going to make or break you. Insist that the dealer enforce "one player to a hand". If no luck, go to the floor. If you find yourself playing sub-optimally, take a break.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I actually apologized to the player later for the way I handled it. She in turn said that she was sorry "...that you thought it affected the play". I didn't say anything, but that pissed me off more.

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you're trying to make all nicey-nice with her and when she didn't give the exact kind of apology you were looking for you got even more pissed off?

Dude, relax.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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More likely the neck. It's kinda like the shaky hands tell. If you see a vein on somebody's forehead or neck throbbing, you know they have a monster or at least they think they do.

[/ QUOTE ]You could always wear a turtle neck, cap, and long sleeves to the casino. They're usually chilly anyway.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

If she spotted a valid tell and chose to let you know that you have this tell, then you will benefit for every hand you play for the rest of your life. Unless you plan to give up poker in the near future, then she undoubtedly saved you more than $45. I would thank her for her generosity.

If I was playing against you and spotted a reliable tell, I would definately not tell you about it and would use it to extract as much money as possible from you. Would you prefer it if she took that approach instead?

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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If she spotted a valid tell and chose to let you know that you have this tell

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Didn't think of it that way. Knew I need to find a way to get my pulse rate down in big hands, but thought it was only my hands that gave me away, so I guess I did gain new info.

As far as not getting the apology I wanted...first of all, I let it go and said nothing. Second of all, it wasn't any kind of apology. It was a way of saying, "this whole situation exists only in your mind and I'm sorry you can't tell the difference." I would have appreciated it a lot more if she said, "I didn't do anything wrong, but I won't do it again." I would disagree, but it would satisfy me to know that she won't rat me out any more.

As I think about it, this is a classic male vs. female way of dealing with things. I want to know that the problem will get fixed and she thinks it's all about feelings.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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If she spotted a valid tell and chose to let you know that you have this tell

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Didn't think of it that way. Knew I need to find a way to get my pulse rate down in big hands, but thought it was only my hands that gave me away, so I guess I did gain new info.

As far as not getting the apology I wanted...first of all, I let it go and said nothing. Second of all, it wasn't any kind of apology. It was a way of saying, "this whole situation exists only in your mind and I'm sorry you can't tell the difference." I would have appreciated it a lot more if she said, "I didn't do anything wrong, but I won't do it again." I would disagree, but it would satisfy me to know that she won't rat me out any more.

As I think about it, this is a classic male vs. female way of dealing with things. I want to know that the problem will get fixed and she thinks it's all about feelings.

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Agree that men are problem solvers and women are more interested in relationships in addition to / at the expense of, problem solving. Not sure its really applicable here.

Meh, I look at this like I look at Table Coaches. If a TC really thinks that I made a -EV play and wants to give me advice that will improve my play, then he is effectively handing me money (in his mind). I thank them for their generosity even though they are usually clueless idiots.

After all, its the thought that counts and they honestly think that they are giving me good advice which will cost them money and will benefit me. I just pretend that they handed me a $5 bill and react accordingly.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I think she was in violation of the rules and could be thrown out of the card room. I would call the floor over and explain what happened.

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Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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After all, its the thought that counts and they honestly think that they are giving me good advice which will cost them money and will benefit me. I just pretend that they handed me a $5 bill and react accordingly.

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Huh?
The woman opened her mouth in the middle of a hand. The "thought" was "See what a great player I am that I found this tell" and it cost OP money. She was not doing out of the kindness of her heart.
You make a play on the Turn and I announce to the table what I think you are doing (and I am right). You think I should be thanked for showing you that you are easy to read?

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

If she said something like, "His pulse is racing, he has a very good hand", then I think you have something to be angry with.

However, since it seems like she didn't think it affected the play it seems more likely that she just pointed out that your pulse rate was up. This still leaves it up to your opponent to decide whether that is because you are strong or weak. Remember that most people don't know what these tells mean. Still, she was a bit out of line, but nothing to get too worked up over.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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it seems more likely that she just pointed out that your pulse rate was up.

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Same difference. You do not volunteer information to a player while he is in a hand. Period.

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After all, its the thought that counts and they honestly think that they are giving me good advice which will cost them money and will benefit me. I just pretend that they handed me a $5 bill and react accordingly.

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Huh?
The woman opened her mouth in the middle of a hand. The "thought" was "See what a great player I am that I found this tell" and it cost OP money. She was not doing out of the kindness of her heart.
You make a play on the Turn and I announce to the table what I think you are doing (and I am right). You think I should be thanked for showing you that you are easy to read?

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My understanding from the OP was that she pointed out a specific tell, which really was a leak in the OP's game. I agree that this cost the OP some portion of $45 (depending on how much it swayed the guys decision to fold). For the sake of argument, lets say that it cost $45 exactly (villian was dead set 100% on calling and her observation was so convincing that he decided to fold).

My point is that the OP now knows that he has this tell and can address it, or he can use it as a false tell, or whatever. This knowledge will benefit him on every poker hand that he plays for the rest of his life, which should be worth a heck of a lot more than $45. Net effect is that her comment was positive EV for the OP, positive EV for the villian in the hand, and negative EV for herself. It was also negative EV for all of OP's future opponents.

Anytime an opponent gives up EV for my benefit, I am thankful.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

I understand your point. My quibble was with the quoted section, implying that she thought she was giving him 'advice' or that she had an atruistic motive. If she had said it after the hand, or off to the side, she should be thanked. But I think her motive was self promotion and the 'benefit' to OP was not on her radar.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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More likely the neck. It's kinda like the shaky hands tell. If you see a vein on somebody's forehead or neck throbbing, you know they have a monster or at least they think they do.

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In a home game once I had two little pair and was facing a big bet from a very LAG guy who loves to bluff me (and he knows I know it and I know he knows I know it, etc...). I look over at him and he's trying to sit very still but I see his neck thumping... *THUMP*THUMP*THUMP*THUMP*THUMP* I smile and say "nope" and muck face up. He had a monster and throws a hissy fit.

Yes, thumping neck is a good one.

And I do think a good way for OP to get over his anger is to appreciate that someone told him of this tell. That's a great gift. Yeah, she shoulda told you after the hand, but in the long run, learning things like this will likely be worth more to you than what you maybe didn't pick up in this case. But obviously the other player was VERY VERY wrong to say anything during the hand.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I understand your point. My quibble was with the quoted section, implying that she thought she was giving him 'advice' or that she had an atruistic motive. If she had said it after the hand, or off to the side, she should be thanked. But I think her motive was self promotion and the 'benefit' to OP was not on her radar.

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I agree. Her primary goal appears to have been attention and she inadvertently ended up benefitting the OP and hurting herself. I am just pointing out that the OP got a net positive benefit, so he shouldn't really be too upset with her.

Sure, she could have handled this so that the OP's benefit was even greater and basically transferred the positive EV she gave to villian so that OP got that EV as well. This would have been illogical behavior for her since her desire was to show off, and she would have been deprived of the attention she so desperately needed.

If I had noticed the tell, I would have kept my mouth shut and exploited the OP all night long. Then again, I don't feel the need to show off at a poker table. I get enough attention from other areas of my life - like posting on 2+2 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I agree. Her primary goal appears to have been attention

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I'm pretty sure I more than satisfied her on that front [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I think she was in violation of the rules and could be thrown out of the card room. I would call the floor over and explain what happened.


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There's no way this woman is being thrown out of the room or given any other official sanction. People talk about hands all the time. It's part of the casual conversation which happens at the table, especially in small stakes games.

The OP shouldn't have reacted at all other than possibly to casually say something like "I had top pair. I knew it was good." His inability to control his anger after the hand and his inability to control his bulging blood vessels are probably linked.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

I would have a problem if a player speculated as to what I had or gave another player information. I guess it depends what she specifically said.

I would have probably gotten upset as well. It sounds like you got a little more angry than I would have. But I don't fault you for it

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

People do NOT talk about hands all the time while the hand is still in process. Colluders and cheats do.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I think she was in violation of the rules and could be thrown out of the card room. I would call the floor over and explain what happened.


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There's no way this woman is being thrown out of the room or given any other official sanction. People talk about hands all the time. It's part of the casual conversation which happens at the table, especially in small stakes games.

The OP shouldn't have reacted at all other than possibly to casually say something like "I had top pair. I knew it was good." His inability to control his anger after the hand and his inability to control his bulging blood vessels are probably linked.

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They probably wouldn't toss her out, but I would still make an issue of it. She was violating the rules.

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

That's funny.

Great looking table CanSpoilU. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

I agree. She should keep her mouth shut if she doesn't have cards in front of her.
It sounds however, that she was strictly trying to get attention drawn to herself - Hey look what I can do - kinda stuff.
You have to let it go and exploit her week poker skills as we already know her observation skills are probably greater than yours. So let your poker play speak for you.

Good luck -

Re: Observant donk tips my hand
 

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I would have a problem if a player speculated as to what I had or gave another player information. I guess it depends what she specifically said.

I would have probably gotten upset as well. It sounds like you got a little more angry than I would have. But I don't fault you for it

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She said

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Wow, your pulse is really racing!

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or something to that effect.

on another topic...
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...as we already know her observation skills are probably greater than yours.

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Not sure how you can draw that conclusion based on the information at hand (never said anything about my own skills). Maybe you are right, but I wouldn't go that far. I'd just say I respect her observation skills. You are right that I had a huge edge on game fundamentals like hand selection, pot odds, aggression, etc.