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-   -   What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2) (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=341921)

BluffTHIS! 02-26-2007 08:03 PM

What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
I realize that the past couple months I have been mostly critical of the PPA for various reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. Plus as well Mason/2+2 have similarly voiced concerns that mainly have to do with issues of transparency. But I really do wish for the PPA to succeed, and I really don't want those of us currently dissatisfied with them to have to try to surmount the great difficulties involved in setting up a similar organization, especially as that will obviously dilute or even confuse our joint message. So I am going to make some proposals here, which I hope are viewed positively by all, as to how I believe the PPA can change itself to be the organization we all want and can support 100%.


1) State clearly that the PPA represents and is accountable to its larger membership and organize the board to reflect same.

This doesn't mean that there isn't some commonality of interests with online sites and advertising media, but it does mean that they aren't the primary stakeholders. And when I say "state clearly" here or later, I don't just mean in a post in this forum, but on the website and in promotional literature.

The board needs to be pruned and expanded so that it doesn't look as it does now, like just a collection of poker players who have backing/endorsement contracts from major online poker sites and writers for CP magazine. This doesn't mean that people in those organizations don't have a place, but just that since they clearly represent certain vested interests in the gaming industry, that there should be a sufficient number of other directors who not only aren't beholden to such interests, but also can give the board the wider representation and wealth of expert competency that it needs. Thus IMO at least half the board should not be seen to represent the interests that the current one does, and surely some of the state directors would be good individuals to be on the main board.


2) Transparency

a) Be fully transparent as to organizational structure and finances

This shouldn't really be an issue, but apparently is. Of course full transparency means just sticking the names of all current board members, paid staff and lobbyists on the website, and a reasonbably detailed income/expense report on a quarterly basis. Sure you can get criticized for spending too much on office supplies or someone's salary, but that goes with the territory.

b) Be fully transparent as to political strategy (i.e. get a carve-out), while keeping specific tactics/contacts secret (i.e. what congressmen to contact re same)

We don't expect the PPA to divulge lobbying contacts, but we do expect the overall strategy to be discussed, especially with a wider range of knowledgeable and competent individuals (see more below).


3) Make a clear statment of the PPA's *full* set of goals and general tactics

a) Clear statement of overall goals

This should be something like:

"The goals of the PPA are to educate and inform the players in the political process about the interests of the poker playing American public, and to work at both the national and state levels for legalization and expansion of legal poker games in both B&M and online venues, with "appropriate" regulation and taxation. While the poker players the PPA represents do not oppose other forms of gambling like casino and sports betting, they are not tied to any initiatives to legalize same, and believe that poker as a skill and community game that has a notable place in American history, should be considered and treated differently from those other forms."

This means that the PPA will not tie itself to the business models of any online poker sites, whether those currently servicing the US market or those that have exited, and that it will also push for legal intra-state online poker as well, especially with the creation of multi-state player pools as is done with lotteries, and that it will not *publicly* ally itself with initiatives to legalize online sports or casino betting.

b) State level initiatives

The PPA should target a handful of the largest states that are most conducive to legalizing poker, or at least which have larger populations of poker players like New York and Texas, with an eye to legalizing not just B&M poker, but also intra-state online poker, and provide expert assistance to its state organizations there to achieve those goals. Expert assistance would include helping to craft model constitutional ammendments and legislation for poker in the targeted states, and providing expert public relations assistance with promoting same. The examples of just a couple such states legalizing poker could have a ripple effect and also help greatly the national legislative initiatives by keeping poker in the public spotlight and leading other states to conclude that they are missing out on additional tax revenue that could be had. What should be the goal regarding B&M poker at the state levels is California style mostly un-regulated cardrooms, instead of poker being dependant on casinos which care more about their -EV house games like slots.

c) General tactics for national and state initiatives

I) Promote poker as a skill game, albeit one with a strong element of chance
II) Emphasize that just as citizens are free to spend their money on other "non-productive" entertainment activities and luxury shopping, that they should be free to do so as well by playing poker.
III) Support a study to craft a model regulatory/taxation model for national legalization of online poker



4) Recruit from this forum expert volunteers for advisory panels

It *should* be clear to the PPA and all here, that there are many posters with expertise in the law and politics and lobbying, as well as in the gaming industry, and that this forum could thus provide a valuable resource of volunteer advice and counsel to the PPA board. Naturally a lot of this would need to be private, and in line with what I suggest below, could be given in private forums not freely accessible on the internet. There could easily be a legislation strategy panel, a political lobbying panel, and a public relations panel, each chaired by a board member. The PPA doesn't have a big staff and is always under funding pressure, but I have no doubt that members of the 2+2 forums would be willing to volunteer to provide extremely valuable private advice on an ongoing basis.


5) Reorganize/expand the PPA's website

a) Take forums private

The current PPA forum is a wasteland and gets virtually zero traffic and posting. It should be eliminated and taken to a private forum for the board and the members of the advisory panels to discuss issues and strategy privately, while this 2+2 forum can be easily be utilized as a general discussion forum for issues of relevance regarding the efforts of the PPA that don't need to be kept private.

b) Provide a comprehensive information resource for state organizations, friendly legislators and the media

The PPA site already has some of this, but it should be expanded so that any PPA state organization, friendly legislators, or the media, can quickly download professional looking PDF documents about the PPA, why poker should be legalized, and what is needed in various targeted states to achieve state goals, like model legislation and regulation for same. When you get that legislator willing to sponsor a bill or attach a rider, he should be able to find what he needs to argue for same, and possibly even state specific model langugae that was pre-crafted by volunteer attorneys in that state and who are PPA members.


6) Find a new paradigm of fundraising not tied to online sites

The PPA simply cannot allow its funding to be tied to the willingness or ability of online sites to provide avenues for same, although of course such is welcomed. Too great a dependance on those sites or poker publications risks being tied to the business models of those corporations which many times will be at variance with all the goals expressed here. A wider mix of fundraising methods needs to be found as in charity tourneys, promoting recurring donations from members and such. Again this doesn't mean eschewing help from the online sites, just not relying on them to faciltate the majority of fundraising.



7) Regularly communicate with 2+2 readers in this forum

Although of course the PPA is communicating with its membership on its site and via its blog, the members with the most to contribute in the way of providing ideas for strategy, both national and state, will likely be found here. The readers of these forums represent some of the most motivated members of the PPA who can be organized on short notice for letter/email/phone campaigns, but they have to feel like their advice and input is important to the PPA for them to be so willing to help when there is an urgent need to do so. In line with the suggestions for volunteer advisory panels to assist the PPA, one of same or a board member could be delegated as the official representative to 2+2 and liason for same with the board, since the PPA president obviously will have demands on his time that don't make regular reading and response here as feasible as it would be for a delegated representative.




What 2+2 can do

I don't speak for Mason, but I am moderately certain that he would agree with most if not all of the above proposals, and that if he saw them implemented he would support the PPA and recommend it to the readers of these forums as deserving of their support, both financially and otherwise. Many posters of the past few months have thought that 2+2 should do much more, because of these forums' status as the premier poker forum on the net, and because 2+2 obviously benefits financially from online players who buy many of 2+2's books. However as Mason has pointed out, 2+2's core competence isn't in the political arena, and he has had many concerns about the PPA regarding transparency issues.

If all of those issues are resolved, and the PPA were to implement the proposals above and Mason approved of same, then there is something I think 2+2 could easily do to show its support. And that is to make this forum, the legislation forum, a PPA sponsored forum, but freely to them instead of requiring that they pay for same as do other advertisers. Thus at the top of this specific forum, could be a line "This forum sponsored by the Poker Player's Alliance" and a line underneath: "If you would like to donate to support the efforts of the PPA, you can visit their website here." This would cost 2+2 nothing and would be a way to provide a visible link to their site and induce posters to donate to help fund the efforts of the PPA. I would think, again given that the PPA addresses the issues raised here and in other threads in a manner largely satisfactory according to Mason's judgement, that Mason and 2+2 would like to support the PPA and the interests of its posters in such a fashion.



So I would hope that the PPA and their supporters who are less critical than myself and others find these suggestions constructive and that the PPA seeks to implement something similar at the earliest opportunity. Such an implementation of all of them in a clear manner will be proof that they are a spokesman for the interests of American poker players, and not offshore poker sites and the media they advertise in.

poorolrich 02-26-2007 08:38 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
Wow! After all the negative crap you received from your last post you are asking for it again. That being said, I basically agree with you.

1p0kerboy 02-26-2007 09:01 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
I beleive this is a much better post than your last one.

Well done.

LesJ 02-26-2007 09:06 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Wow! After all the negative crap you received from your last post you are asking for it again. That being said, I basically agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff's post was far from negative here. He presented several possible positive action steps that could conceivably help the PPA as well as the population of online poker players. I will say that at least a couple of these ideas/concepts are already in play in one form or another.

Thanks,

Les

demon102 02-26-2007 09:38 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
ciff notes?

TheEngineer 02-26-2007 09:41 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
Agree, this is MUCH better than the last post. The last post was an anti-PPA rant....this contains a lot of constructive comments. I like it.

There's still an open question of what WE can do if we don't like PPA as it stands today. I hope everyone will join us at Fight UIGEA!! -- Action plan for week of 2/26. This is a totally nonpartisan activity we can do ourselves, and there are enough of us to make a difference.

BluffTHIS! 02-27-2007 07:12 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I will say that at least a couple of these ideas/concepts are already in play in one form or another.


[/ QUOTE ]


Les,

Regarding the items on the list I gave, I believe that if the ones regarding the makeup of the board and the creation of advisory panels were implemented, that most posters here who have often been critical, would be willing to trust them a lot more about other things because they would be seen as getting a wide range of competent advice, and also not being tied too closely to vested online interests which just leads to members rightly questioning whose interests the PPA primarily serve.

BluffTHIS! 02-28-2007 11:33 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I will say that at least a couple of these ideas/concepts are already in play in one form or another.


[/ QUOTE ]


Les,

Can you comment further on the above remark?

Mason Malmuth 03-01-2007 04:42 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
Hi Bluff:

They are definitely in play since we are now communicating some of the same to the appropriate people since our meeting Monday with our attorneys. I haven't heard directly from Mark Tratos (who represents us) so I don't know if the exact communications have actually taken place as of this moment.

Best wishes,
Mason

dlk9s 03-01-2007 10:50 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
ciff notes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the section headings.

Richas 03-03-2007 08:13 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
Nice post, I pretty much agree.

One area I think that is missing is really local activities to give the PPA a local presence. Public opinion needs to be influenced and the best way to do this is to have a vocal active membership base with some visibility, local activities, fundraising and charity events. Essentially nice respectable members influencing their friends and colleagues and seeking out local media opportunities. How hard is it really to get poker players to meet and even play poker live together?

BluffTHIS! 03-05-2007 06:04 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
Richas,

I agree that local activities are a great way to get some positive PR. However in most jurisdictions you will have the catch-22 of wanting to host a tourney to benefit charity and raise awareness of efforts to legalize poker but not being able to precisely because of restrictive gaming laws. In a big enough metro area I guess you could try to get a local players association to do other things to raise money for charity or do some public work, but it would seem hard to get all but the most committed hard-core members to go along with that.

With all the college age members of 2+2 here, perhaps a good way to draw attention to poker would be to try to host a debate on gaming legislation on campuses and get media attention for same, and put emphasis on the hypocrisy of both favoring some forms of gambling over others, and of disfavoring poker while favoring other entertainment activities which also have a potential of addiction in a small portion of persons engaging in those activities (like compulsive shopping).

Richas 03-05-2007 08:58 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
I agree bluff. Starting with campus organisations is a good idea. As for the charity events I was thinking more of members organising them for charities they already support, sucking in people who would not normally play but using tables and chips used by the local PPA organisation, you could even have PPA members helping out as coaches/trainers for the non players sucked in by the charity ethos (wearing the T shirt obviously).

I understand that in some states this may fall foul of the law but the US has a long and proud tradition of civil disobedience, I do not understand why this freedom is not worth defying the law for (so long as people understand the consequences).

Yes it is hard work to engage with others, including non poker players, but that is how to influence public opinion.

*TT* 03-05-2007 11:08 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
BluffThis: I fully support your proposal. But I do ask that you continue to push hard to have anyone that has a conflict of interest removed from the board of directors. As an example Jan Fischer and Linda Johnson are fine representatives of the poker industry and from what little I know wonderful people, however they are not representatives of poker players.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Mason Malmuth 03-06-2007 04:10 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
But I do ask that you continue to push hard to have anyone that has a conflict of interest removed from the board of directors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi TT:

That's our position as well. It will be very difficult for us to support the PPA until this is resolved.

Best wishes,
Mason

Richas 03-06-2007 06:26 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I do ask that you continue to push hard to have anyone that has a conflict of interest removed from the board of directors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi TT:

That's our position as well. It will be very difficult for us to support the PPA until this is resolved.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

For clarity are you asking for no industry representation or a majority of "player" representatives? I would have thought that the later - with an elected board would be sufficient.

BluffTHIS! 03-06-2007 10:07 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I do ask that you continue to push hard to have anyone that has a conflict of interest removed from the board of directors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi TT:

That's our position as well. It will be very difficult for us to support the PPA until this is resolved.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

For clarity are you asking for no industry representation or a majority of "player" representatives? I would have thought that the later - with an elected board would be sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]


TT & Mason,

I agree with Richas here. Although any industry reprentatives are going to be subject to a conflict of interest, I think the strictest standard of only accepting player reps on a board totally elected by members is not necessary or feasible. This is as long as those reps are clearly being named as such, consitute a minority of the board, and also don't have direct conflicts to do with other forms of gambling, like online sports or casinos companies. I don't want such industry interests to dominate the PPA, but I also don't think that they shouldn't have any place at the table. This is especially the case as a lot of the members of the PPA would probably vote for such persons who have a lot of name recognition.

However as noted above, those persons need to clearly state who they are representing, instead of trying to maintain the fiction that a writer for CP magazine isn't a representative of CP. Thus I would think Allyson Jaffrey Schulman, who is also an attorney, would be a legitimate member of the board, as she does have something to contribute, and also will clearly be seen as a rep of CP, and thus indirectly the sites that advertise with them.

The reality is that the PPA would most likely not be able to conduct elections for members of its board from its total membership, as only a small majority of same would actually be interested enough to vote or assign a proxy. A system where the board is partially self-chosen for a minority of the board, and the rest elected by state chapters by region or something similar, is probably going to the best that is practical.

hollaballa 03-06-2007 11:57 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
I don't think having a completely independent board is going to be possible or do I think it is necessary.

You also have to consider that with now "free" membership, and the hiring of a major lobbyist, someone besides poker players is footing the bill for all of this.

If pokerstars is pumping in a bunch of money, they are going to have more say than a vote of the memebership or whatever.

I think because of the money it will take to make something happen, that's how it's going to have to be.

I personally do not care how it works as long as poker gets a carve out.

I think if anyone has a problem with the board and not liking the fact that they can't do anything about it, then they should form another organization.

I think people are getting to hung up in whether this is a lobbying group for players or for people in the poker business. Both have the same goal, so why does it matter.

Do "players" feel the big pokersites are going to somehow get a bill passed that is bad for players? That's the only reason I could think of that makes a difference.

*TT* 03-06-2007 12:56 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
However as noted above, those persons need to clearly state who they are representing, instead of trying to maintain the fiction that a writer for CP magazine isn't a representative of CP. Thus I would think Allyson Jaffrey Schulman, who is also an attorney, would be a legitimate member of the board, as she does have something to contribute, and also will clearly be seen as a rep of CP, and thus indirectly the sites that advertise with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allyson Jaffrey Schulman seems to have more conflicts on interest than the other board members I previously mentioned. Her business is not to further the needs of poker players, she is there to further the business of Card Player. Lets be honest, without the online poker room industry Card Player loses over 3/4's of its advertising revenue, at this point it's operations may be in jeopardy (I don't claim to have insider knowledge, my statement is only an assumption based on my extensive knowledge of the publishing and poker industries). Her statements and articles to date make her appear to be a bad person to represent the PPA, she is taking a myopic approach to the issue which will backfire in the eyes of congressmen. To borrow a broken campaign promise, we need a uniter not a divider - Allyson Jaffrey Schulman comes across as the ultimate divider for this cause. Now this doesnt mean that her intentions are not good, nor does it mean I dislike her or her opinions; but it does mean her unique position does not make her the proper representative of the Poker PLAYERS Organization. If the PPA choses to change it's name to the Online Poker Room Lobbying Organization and change its mission to protecting the rights of Online Poker Rooms to operate in the USA then she would make an ideal board member, her mission would therefore match perfectly. As it currently stands, I see a conflict of interest. This is my opinion, hopefully my opinion will be shared by others.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

KotOD 03-06-2007 01:18 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
So who do you people want to sit on this board? Your reasoning has become so skewed that it's like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. "Look at me! I'm doing cool stuff over here!"

Most well-known professionals already have some endorsement deal with some site. Would putting them on the board be a conflict? Mason obviously can't sit on the board - he's got way too many vested interests.

So who sits on this board? Random 30/60 B&M geezer? Random $100 HU SNG 22 year old college dropout?

Put together your ideal, sayyyyy, 12 person board.

hollaballa 03-06-2007 01:28 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However as noted above, those persons need to clearly state who they are representing, instead of trying to maintain the fiction that a writer for CP magazine isn't a representative of CP. Thus I would think Allyson Jaffrey Schulman, who is also an attorney, would be a legitimate member of the board, as she does have something to contribute, and also will clearly be seen as a rep of CP, and thus indirectly the sites that advertise with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allyson Jaffrey Schulman seems to have more conflicts on interest than the other board members I previously mentioned. Her business is not to further the needs of poker players, she is there to further the business of Card Player. Lets be honest, without the online poker room industry Card Player loses over 3/4's of its advertising revenue, at this point it's operations may be in jeopardy (I don't claim to have insider knowledge, my statement is only an assumption based on my extensive knowledge of the publishing and poker industries). Her statements and articles to date make her appear to be a bad person to represent the PPA, she is taking a myopic approach to the issue which will backfire in the eyes of congressmen. To borrow a broken campaign promise, we need a uniter not a divider - Allyson Jaffrey Schulman comes across as the ultimate divider for this cause. Now this doesnt mean that her intentions are not good, nor does it mean I dislike her or her opinions; but it does mean her unique position does not make her the proper representative of the Poker PLAYERS Organization. If the PPA choses to change it's name to the Online Poker Room Lobbying Organization and change its mission to protecting the rights of Online Poker Rooms to operate in the USA then she would make an ideal board member, her mission would therefore match perfectly. As it currently stands, I see a conflict of interest. This is my opinion, hopefully my opinion will be shared by others.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

TT, I totally understand what you're saying, but it's a little bit of a catch 22 I think.

I'm not a big fan of the Shulman's, but even so, Allyn has her livelihood on the line here. Would you rather have someone fighting for you who's a recreational $1/2 NL player, or someone who's livelihood is on the line?

Cardplayer makes most of it's money through affiliate income. They've made a ton of money, thus, they have a ton of money to put towards the PPA. I don't know that they are doing that, but I would suspect they are.

I think the reality of the situation is this. It's going to take a TON of money to get a poker carve out. Alfonse D'Amato doesn't work for cheap.

Thus, the fight for poker is going to have to be done by a small group of companies who have a lot of funds. Those would be the Cardplayer, Pokerstars, etc of the world.

If we want poker to be legal, I think that's how it's going to have to be. Complaining about the PPA "not being represented by the players" is wasted effort IMO.

The goal is the same...correct?

I don't think it's feasible for a "group" soley made up of players to organize and be as effective as the PPA has been.

a 160,000 member group trying to be controlled by 160,000 people is just a mess.

Fortune 500 companies don't operate that way. Everyone may have a vote, but the people with the biggest investment have the biggest say so. That's how the PPA is operating it appears, and I have no problem with that. I think its the only way it will work.

Additionally, as I've pointed out before, it sadly seems that people aren't going to be happy with the PPA no matter what.

They've made great strides, but people will still complain. "I don't like this board member", "they aren't doing enough at the state level", "D'Amato is a bum", etc, etc.

This is the reason no poker organization could survive in the past. Hopefully, the PPA will keep getting the funding to continue and the peanut gallory will fade away.

*TT* 03-06-2007 01:38 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]

Put together your ideal, sayyyyy, 12 person board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Start with respected individuals such as Professor I. Nelson Rose and work your way backwards. Alfonse D'Amato was an excellent choice, this is the caliber we should be aiming for. The board needs to be a mix of celebrity players with a clean record who attract the "wow" factor, and noted industry thinkers who fight for the rights of players and would be respected by the members of congress that we are trying to sway. Does anyone really think that Schulman would be respected by congress? Does congress care who Linda Johnson is? And why is Jan Fischer on the board, she is Linda John's partner... thats ridiculous!

The point is we have serious business to do if we ever expect to get a carve out, and as it currently stands its not looking good. If the PPA doesn't put its best foot forward and attract the right people for its board of directors we don't stand a chance in hell in getting this prohibition overturned.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

KotOD 03-06-2007 01:43 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
Nelson Rose is a terrible choice, in my opinion. He has no reason to fight for poker players.

*TT* 03-06-2007 01:44 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
If we want poker to be legal, I think that's how it's going to have to be. Complaining about the PPA "not being represented by the players" is wasted effort IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congress will not take the lobbying power of an organization that represents THE PEOPLE seriously. Congress won't take the lobbying power of an organization that was created by Party Poker to represent the industry by masquerading as an organization to represent the people seriously.

Getting a carve out is serious business. We need the right people representing us the right way or it will never happen. IMHO anyone who doesn't stand up and question how the PPA operates at this stage is actually hurting the game of poker, not helping it. BluffThis!! will go down in history as a person who helped archive the end goal, don't you want to do the same?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

*TT* 03-06-2007 01:45 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Nelson Rose is a terrible choice, in my opinion. He has no reason to fight for poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Show me your reasons why. A blind statement like that is pointless without facts to back it up.

KotOD 03-06-2007 01:49 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Congress won't take the lobbying power of an organization that was created by Party Poker to represent the industry by masquerading as an organization to represent the people seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is certainly why paying members matter. The more that the PPA has, the more clout they have.

KotOD 03-06-2007 01:54 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nelson Rose is a terrible choice, in my opinion. He has no reason to fight for poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Show me your reasons why. A blind statement like that is pointless without facts to back it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What interest does he have in poker? He's a gambling law professor with his own business that runs deep into all forms of gambling. he has no vested interest in poker specifically.

If anything, he would more likely be against a specific carveout for personal and business reasons.

*TT* 03-06-2007 01:57 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nelson Rose is a terrible choice, in my opinion. He has no reason to fight for poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Show me your reasons why. A blind statement like that is pointless without facts to back it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What interest does he have in poker? He's a gambling law professor with his own business that runs deep into all forms of gambling. he has no vested interest in poker specifically.

If anything, he would more likely be against a specific carveout for personal and business reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to investigate him some more, he is pro carve out and he has argued that as written the existing law is doomed.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BluffTHIS! 03-06-2007 01:58 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
TT,

I don't think it is fair to cast any rep from CP as unfitting to be on the board of the PPA just because they have their own interests. They do in fact reflect the interests of a lot of their subscribers who are poker players, even if those interests are going to be skewed toward either online only or online plus B&M tourney players. So as long as they don't have more than one seat, and the majority of the board represents those players who have an equal interest in B&M cash games as in online poker or tourneys, then the subset of poker players their own interests represent deserves a seat at the table. After all, if the board were balanced now, I doubt many would be complaining a whole lot about 1 or 2 members who had conflicts of interests with magazines or online poker sites, when the majority didn't.


Now I would like to address another matter brought up in the PPA ad thread. And that is that it is *terrible* for PPA to either take the position, or be viewed as taking the position, that the IUGEA is so well written that it along with other legislation makes it illegal for any online sites to continue to do business with US players, contrary to the legal positions taken by many private sites. This is nothing other than allowing themselves to be a stooge for party poker. In fact if anything, the PPA should *totally* distance itself from any contacts with party poker and remain neutral on the exact scope of the IUGEA (and this brings up the interesting point that an ad that maintains it is illegal for all sites to do business with US players runs contrary to the legal opinions of Ms. Schulman in CP who is on the PPA board).

KotOD 03-06-2007 02:00 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
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Nelson Rose is a terrible choice, in my opinion. He has no reason to fight for poker players.

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I disagree. Show me your reasons why. A blind statement like that is pointless without facts to back it up.

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What interest does he have in poker? He's a gambling law professor with his own business that runs deep into all forms of gambling. he has no vested interest in poker specifically.

If anything, he would more likely be against a specific carveout for personal and business reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to investigate him some more, he is pro carve out and he has argued that as written the existing law is doomed.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, he has no reason to fight for it other than taking a paycheck. He's not harmed at all by the implementation of the law, nor the enforcement of the law. His business goes on. That might be okay when you need someone doing the dirty work like Senator Pothole, but it doesn't make for a viable long-term plan.

BluffTHIS! 03-06-2007 02:03 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
If this debate about Professor Rose or other specific persons gets real drawn out, perhaps a separate thread would be in order to discuss just who should be on the board of the PPA.

hollaballa 03-06-2007 02:03 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
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If we want poker to be legal, I think that's how it's going to have to be. Complaining about the PPA "not being represented by the players" is wasted effort IMO.

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Congress will not take the lobbying power of an organization that represents THE PEOPLE seriously. Congress won't take the lobbying power of an organization that was created by Party Poker to represent the industry by masquerading as an organization to represent the people seriously.

Getting a carve out is serious business. We need the right people representing us the right way or it will never happen. IMHO anyone who doesn't stand up and question how the PPA operates at this stage is actually hurting the game of poker, not helping it. BluffThis!! will go down in history as a person who helped archive the end goal, don't you want to do the same?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You lost me here TT.

Do you think the Horse industry got to congress with a group of THE PEOPLE.

Ah...no, things get done in DC with money and power....I don't think you understand that.

Your point is a lobbying interest group needs to appear independent to be effective.

You're premise is just wrong and uninformed.

*TT* 03-06-2007 02:44 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we want poker to be legal, I think that's how it's going to have to be. Complaining about the PPA "not being represented by the players" is wasted effort IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congress will not take the lobbying power of an organization that represents THE PEOPLE seriously. Congress won't take the lobbying power of an organization that was created by Party Poker to represent the industry by masquerading as an organization to represent the people seriously.

Getting a carve out is serious business. We need the right people representing us the right way or it will never happen. IMHO anyone who doesn't stand up and question how the PPA operates at this stage is actually hurting the game of poker, not helping it. BluffThis!! will go down in history as a person who helped archive the end goal, don't you want to do the same?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You lost me here TT.

Do you think the Horse industry got to congress with a group of THE PEOPLE.

Ah...no, things get done in DC with money and power....I don't think you understand that.

Your point is a lobbying interest group needs to appear independent to be effective.

You're premise is just wrong and uninformed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horseracing had a legitimate B&M industry that was regulated by the government for for than a century when they got their carve-out. Horse racing at the time was perceived to be a legitimate industry. Poker does not have that same perception, it is perceived to be a pastime not an industry. There is no B&M equivalent to the companies who were operating in the US before the UGIA was passed, and many are currently perceived (I am using the word perceived intentionally) to be operating illegally now. It is not in our best interest to allow companies that are viewed as criminal enterprises located in foreign territories lobby on our behalf, it takes more money and power to have the wishes of a criminal enterprise change the views of Congress than any of us could ever produce. Therefore our best oportunity is to lobby Congress with an autonomous entity that represents the people, the players interests. Don't you see that this is a significant reason why 2+2 has not endorsed the PPA yet?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

hollaballa 03-06-2007 02:46 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we want poker to be legal, I think that's how it's going to have to be. Complaining about the PPA "not being represented by the players" is wasted effort IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congress will not take the lobbying power of an organization that represents THE PEOPLE seriously. Congress won't take the lobbying power of an organization that was created by Party Poker to represent the industry by masquerading as an organization to represent the people seriously.

Getting a carve out is serious business. We need the right people representing us the right way or it will never happen. IMHO anyone who doesn't stand up and question how the PPA operates at this stage is actually hurting the game of poker, not helping it. BluffThis!! will go down in history as a person who helped archive the end goal, don't you want to do the same?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You lost me here TT.

Do you think the Horse industry got to congress with a group of THE PEOPLE.

Ah...no, things get done in DC with money and power....I don't think you understand that.

Your point is a lobbying interest group needs to appear independent to be effective.

You're premise is just wrong and uninformed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horseracing had a legitimate B&M industry that was regulated by the government for for than a century when they got their carve-out. Horse racing at the time was perceived to be a legitimate industry. Poker does not have that same perception, it is perceived to be a pastime not an industry. There is no B&M equivalent to the companies who were operating in the US before the UGIA was passed, and many are currently perceived (I am using the word perceived intentionally) to be operating illegally now. It is not in our best interest to allow companies that are viewed as criminal enterprises located in foreign territories lobby on our behalf, it takes more money and power to have the wishes of a criminal enterprise change the views of Congress than any of us could ever produce. Therefore our best oportunity is to lobby Congress with an autonomous entity that represents the people, the players interests. Don't you see that this is a significant reason why 2+2 has not endorsed the PPA yet?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see the difference between horse tracks who've been around for a long time to now be able to offer their product over the internet versus MGM being able to offer their product over the internet.

*TT* 03-06-2007 02:48 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we want poker to be legal, I think that's how it's going to have to be. Complaining about the PPA "not being represented by the players" is wasted effort IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congress will not take the lobbying power of an organization that represents THE PEOPLE seriously. Congress won't take the lobbying power of an organization that was created by Party Poker to represent the industry by masquerading as an organization to represent the people seriously.

Getting a carve out is serious business. We need the right people representing us the right way or it will never happen. IMHO anyone who doesn't stand up and question how the PPA operates at this stage is actually hurting the game of poker, not helping it. BluffThis!! will go down in history as a person who helped archive the end goal, don't you want to do the same?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You lost me here TT.

Do you think the Horse industry got to congress with a group of THE PEOPLE.

Ah...no, things get done in DC with money and power....I don't think you understand that.

Your point is a lobbying interest group needs to appear independent to be effective.

You're premise is just wrong and uninformed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horseracing had a legitimate B&M industry that was regulated by the government for for than a century when they got their carve-out. Horse racing at the time was perceived to be a legitimate industry. Poker does not have that same perception, it is perceived to be a pastime not an industry. There is no B&M equivalent to the companies who were operating in the US before the UGIA was passed, and many are currently perceived (I am using the word perceived intentionally) to be operating illegally now. It is not in our best interest to allow companies that are viewed as criminal enterprises located in foreign territories lobby on our behalf, it takes more money and power to have the wishes of a criminal enterprise change the views of Congress than any of us could ever produce. Therefore our best oportunity is to lobby Congress with an autonomous entity that represents the people, the players interests. Don't you see that this is a significant reason why 2+2 has not endorsed the PPA yet?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see the difference between horse tracks who've been around for a long time to now be able to offer their product over the internet versus MGM being able to offer their product over the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

MGM has chosen to abstain from this fight, it is not in their best interests. Yet.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Richas 03-06-2007 04:47 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nelson Rose is a terrible choice, in my opinion. He has no reason to fight for poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Show me your reasons why. A blind statement like that is pointless without facts to back it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What interest does he have in poker? He's a gambling law professor with his own business that runs deep into all forms of gambling. he has no vested interest in poker specifically.

If anything, he would more likely be against a specific carveout for personal and business reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean someone with specialist legal expertise? Good choice in a diverse board.

BluffTHIS! 03-09-2007 02:21 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
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I will say that at least a couple of these ideas/concepts are already in play in one form or another.


[/ QUOTE ]


Les,

Can you comment further on the above remark?

[/ QUOTE ]


Les,

You still around? I would still be interested in your answering the above question.



Note to other posters: this thread got sidetracked a little with discussions of whom should be on the PPA board. Please make comments on that in the other thread: How the PPA's board should be composed

LesJ 03-10-2007 02:11 AM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will say that at least a couple of these ideas/concepts are already in play in one form or another.


[/ QUOTE ]


Les,

Can you comment further on the above remark?

[/ QUOTE ]


Les,

You still around? I would still be interested in your answering the above question.



Note to other posters: this thread got sidetracked a little with discussions of whom should be on the PPA board. Please make comments on that in the other thread: How the PPA's board should be composed

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff,

I guess I missed that post a few days ago. I apologize. I will post in this thread as well as your "Board of Directors" thread before I head off to bed tonight.

I guess the biggest area I am knowledgable about at this point that I know is being worked on is Point #5 "5) Reorganize/expand the PPA's website."

In 5-A, you suggest that the PPA take their forums private so that the "board and the members of the advisory panels to discuss issues and strategy privately." When the State Directors were put in place, we began testing a forum thru "People Aggregator." There is a forum dedicated to just the State Directors and PPA leadership which will hopefully be used for just the type of thing you suggested.

There is also a forum and blog for each State Director to run. It is our duty as State Directors to keep our blogs and forums updated. It is planned to incorporate this network into the main PPA site in the coming months, but there seem to be some issues with the functionality of the site to work out, imho. As soon as I finish these posts, I am going to fire off an email to Randy Lau, who seems to be my main point of contact with the PPA, to share some of my concerns with this network as it exists right now.

You also state that the current PPA forum is a "wasteland" and should be eliminated. It is lightly used right now, but is also difficult to even find. I will suggest that when links to these "state specific" forums go up, that they are much more prominent on the site, to increase traffic, input, and potential volunteerism.

"5-b) Provide a comprehensive information resource for state organizations, friendly legislators and the media"

I know that a State Director "Starter Kit" is in the works right now to provide us with standardized material and talking points to share with other poker players, legistlators and the media.

Thanks for your input, Bluff. You have several good ideas that will definetly be passed on.

Les

LinusKS 03-10-2007 01:40 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
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It is not in our best interest to allow companies that are viewed as criminal enterprises located in foreign territories lobby on our behalf,
TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

There's really only one practical way to legal internet poker in the US, and it involves licensing US companies at the state level.

No Federal legislation is going to accomplish legal internet gambling in the US. There's no precedent for stripping this power from the states, it may not be constitutional, and even if it is, as a practical matter, as a political matter, it's impossible.

What the internet sites want is not legal internet gambling, what they want is a rollback on enforcement.

Tuff_Fish 03-10-2007 02:41 PM

Re: What I Would Like to See From the PPA (and 2+2)
 
[ QUOTE ]

.

What the internet sites want is not legal internet gambling, what they want is a rollback on enforcement.

.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is also what 90% of the kids on these forums want. It is tough to get a coherent plan together when most of the folks involved want something that is undoable.

But keep up the good fight none the less. You are completely correct in that the breakthrough will come at the state level.

Anybody know the current status of the North Dakota effort?

Tuff


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