($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

The table has been pretty tight, and neither of these guys has done anything outright stupid.

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2120)
UTG+1 (t1360)
MP1 (t1410)
Hero (t1265)
CO (t1385)
Button (t3075)
SB (t2000)
BB (t885)

Preflop: Hero is in MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t275</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t225, BB calls t175

Flop: (t825) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t100</font>, BB calls t100, Hero?

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

See why pushing preflop here is good? What I'd do here would really depend on the opponents. I have a feeling you're ahead.

Ryan

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

PF I'd raise to at least 350 or push.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Tough spot. Really difficult to say. There is nothing in this action that defines your hand.

I really don't see much of a point at leading this flop. It certianly looks like a probe bet. While the call could mean anything because of the stupidity of the size of the donk bet.

Both seem to be looking to you for an answer. So, I'd shove my chips in and say my hand is good. I don't want to give two opponents free cards on this board.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

i'm coming over the top here alot of the time, very good chance you are ahead. sb could be on a flush draw wanting to see a cheap street. a shove pf isn't a bad idea either.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

push

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

ew, flop is tough, id shove PF every time in this spot with stack though

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

i fold. as much as it sucks and as weak a bet that is, the chance that one of them has a Q is way to high to just push HOPING that they dont have a Q

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

I dont understand why some people are advocating staying in this hand.

If you call there are just so many cards you dont want to see. Its fair odds on youll have to put the hand down at some point.

And if you raise? well IF youre ahead, your opponents will probably have a fair few outs (if chasing draws) and if youre behind youre XXXXXX.

IMHO, you have to push preflop (as many have already stated) but as played Id have to fold and kick myself.

Just my two pence.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Preflop is fine.If you can play good postflop.
I shove this flop. That minbet is rarely a better hand and your stack is smaller than the pot.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

I like preflop push...

Having said that, while I see the logic of pushing over the top, it concerns me that we are facing 2 opponents. As said above, I believe that one of them has a Q...read dependant as to ability to fold TP is important for this decision. Also, unless the BB is a donk, realize that he has called off ~ 1/5 his remaining chips...that has a weird ring to it if the guy knows anything about the game. Is he sitting on a very strong hand and trying to get all of your chips and the SB's chips in the center? Is he bad enough to call on a draw (unless he has the str8 / flush draw...and even then I might be pushing here) knowing that even though the pot odds are correct, if he loses he will be cripled?

All in all, I might actually let this one go and move to push bot mode with ~10 BB.

Fammy

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

You're probably not ahead and you don't have any draws. Fold or "call and see" is fine.

Shove is silly, at any point. Heaven forbid you have to make decisions.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

i would push. i believe this is fairly straightforward considering its 8 handed. if this was 5-6 handed it would be more difficult. folding is really bad for those who say that.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

I will take the easy way . I push PF.
Post flop I think there is too many hands will call me ( draws and Qs ). Maybe is wrong but Im done with a Q on the flop

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

You guys are clearly right. You showed aggression preflop, got called in two places, were bet into and called (albeit weak) before you act, have no draw if you're wrong, and are perfectly OK stack-wise if you fold.

Sounds like a standard push to me.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

This is a wierd spot. I don't like a preflop shove here with 12 BB. But then raising and getting called and seeing that flop plus the gay donk bet is kind of sick too. Newbies like to flop minbet top pair (probably bad kicker, but they can't fold to a raise either since they have top pair, dude!) and tricksters emulate this behavior as well because aggressive players behind them will frequently raise over the top with their beat pocket pair or overcards thinking it's a lame semibluff.

So with that said, as played, I fold to the minbet on the flop and watch the two players gay bet each other to showdown with QJ and K8 of clubs.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

bump.

i still think i like a shove

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Push pf=+ev
Raise t250-300= more +ev
As played the flop is a super easy shove.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are clearly right. You showed aggression preflop, got called in two places, were bet into and called (albeit weak) before you act, have no draw if you're wrong, and are perfectly OK stack-wise if you fold.

Sounds like a standard push to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Meh, they always seem to hit... the caller is probably chasing a draw, the min raiser prolly has a pair of queens... I would probably call... see what happens on turn

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK MINBET AND CALL OF MINBET ON A SUPER DRAWY BOARD IS A HAND BETTER THAN JJ HERE. READING EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD THAT ISN'T EAGLES OR FLUORESCENT HIPPO MAKES MY EYES BLEED.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Pudge and others are correct that minbet is not scary on that board, also if he has a weak Q he might fold it.
In game I don't always see it that way - which is why I push PF.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

I don't agree shove is the best move preflop. I would like it much better if your stack was lower than 1,000 or there was one or more limpers/raisers before you. But I don't like the size of your raise either, it is not big enough to discourage and punish light callers with picture cards or weaker aces, especially from blinds. Make it at least $300.

At the flop, the min bet and call from the blinds do not tell you much except the SB is probably a donkey. I guess there is a good chance that you are against a mid pair (including lower pocket pairs) and a draw. Sure you might be behind now, but you still have some FE even against weak queens (less so if the one with a queen is stupid.)

Overall, folding would never cross my mind at this stage. Now the pot offers you more than 10:1 odds to see how things would develop at the turn, so calling is not bad here. I would push 40%, call 40% and raise to something like $500 20% of the time (depending on the reads on the players). 0% to fold.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree shove is the best move preflop. I would like it much better if your stack was lower than 1,000 or there was one or more limpers/raisers before you. But I don't like the size of your raise either, it is not big enough to discourage and punish light callers with picture cards or weaker aces, especially from blinds. Make it at least $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly is enough it punish light callers. Calling any amount out of the blinds at this stage in a sit n go is going to be -EV for the most part. Doesn't really matter if its to 200,250, or 300. You simply are not deep enough to be calling out of the blinds in spots like these.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree shove is the best move preflop. I would like it much better if your stack was lower than 1,000 or there was one or more limpers/raisers before you. But I don't like the size of your raise either, it is not big enough to discourage and punish light callers with picture cards or weaker aces, especially from blinds. Make it at least $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly is enough it punish light callers. Calling any amount out of the blinds at this stage in a sit n go is going to be -EV for the most part. Doesn't really matter if its to 200,250, or 300. You simply are not deep enough to be calling out of the blinds in spots like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, don't we also need to adjust our play to the typical opponents at lower buy-in SNGs? Regardless of whatever an ideal and smart villain should think, I bet ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) most of them would feel very different about calling 200 and 300 bets especially 100 of their chips are already invested in to the pot. And I do think the bet size matters, say if you are in the BB somebody open bet and there are one or two callers before you, you have something like J10s I would be a lot more happy to call if it is the min size raise as it would give me an almost irresistable pot odds.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, don't we also need to adjust our play to the typical opponents at lower buy-in SNGs? Regardless of whatever an ideal and smart villain should think, I bet ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) most of them would feel very different about calling 200 and 300 bets especially 100 of their chips are already invested in to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think someone that is going to call a raise of 250 or 275 is going to call a raise of 300. We don't need to raise more when it doesn't drastically change our opponents behaviour.

[ QUOTE ]
And I do think the bet size matters, say if you are in the BB somebody open bet and there are one or two callers before you, you have something like J10s I would be a lot more happy to call if it is the min size raise as it would give me an almost irresistable pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for one, I wasn't advocating min raising. But, I do think 275 is a lot different than 200. Again, I don't think it's going to drastically change an opponents calling range. So, once that first guys calls, the BB will be getting really good pot odds even if you raise to 300.

This doesn't even address the issue that pot odds don't really matter at this stage in the sng. We have to think about how our decision will most likely affect our tournament equity.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

In general, I think 250&gt;&gt;300 at this stage of the tournament, and with our stack.

The 50 difference might look like nothing, but it can often be the diffence between being able to CB and fold to CRAI, and not being able to comfortably fold (forcing us to either make a call or fold that is bad, or forcing us to overbet all-in as our CB)

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

In no way I am an ICM expert, but at this blind level with an average M of 11.2 and 8 of 9 players still alive with meaningful stack, are we really in the stage where pot odds doesn't really matter that much any more? I sometimes feel that people get into the pushbot mode too hastily.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

preflop raise was weak prob allowed for call of like q 10 here in one of the blinds.
prob push still if they have been playn tight like you said. small blind mite lay down weak kicker specially with action behind him still with bb most likely on some draw who mite just throw his chips in there anyways being his weak stack...

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

The following needs to be clarified:

If sb is holding a queen he is either

a) a tard deluxe for making the preflop call, and for minbetting
b) a genius with AQ

In any case, he is NEVER folding this flop.
That is, IF he's holding a queen.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU PLAYED A $16 OR $27?

Just curious.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU PLAYED A $16 OR $27?

Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy whenever I see you at my tables, why?

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Couldn't guess. Care to share PS name/sharkscope?

Nothing?

Still nothing? Wow.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Do you have anything useful to add whatsoever?

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

I just don't get why shoving the flop is best play, the only hand that is going to call you is a hand that beats you. I like a call on the flop and revaluate on the turn.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

but yeh i would have just shoved preflop

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

It was a simple question. And yes, I think I've made it clear that I don't think a push is wise. Maybe I'm wrong, but all I've seen so far is that I disagree with people that don't play this level regularly, like I do.

Again, if you like me so much, let me know who you are and we can go from there. I know that when I load up a SNG, I'm not looking forward to any winners at the table, so I can't see why you would want me there.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

FYI, I wasn't responding to you initially tonight if that's what made you so defensive. Didn't realize you had the random post above my response...hugs, not drugs?

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

Yeah well, I had the only post made in the last 1,5 hrs prior to that upper case rampage [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

FWIW my initial thought here was to call the flop. But I dunno, I suppose with reads this could be fold or push, or maybe even raise/fold.

Re: ($27) JJ gets in a weird spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU PLAYED A $16 OR $27?

Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember because I play good in spots like this and moved up really quickly.

Also the only reasons to shove preflop here are
1. I'm 54543454 tabling and don't have time to take a thin edge by raising to 250.

2. I'm not good enough at postflop play with 2x pot behind.

Also 250&gt;300 here. Think about how shallow we are it is not necessary to make a 3 bb raise. I might raise 225 here. One of the major reasons to raise preflop is too build a pot, however, we are so shallow your preflop raise can be small because any raise is building the pot at an appropriate leve.