Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

I've been haivng a discussion with different people lately about whether a abc predictable preflop player can beat higher games. Can someone playing very tight solid poker beat higher games? Or do they have to mix it up? And if have to mix it up in what way do you need to mix it up to vere from solid pro play?

If a player plays solid and doeswn't make mistakes how can he not beat any game? I understand that hourly rate might be better if he made some plays sometimes but wouldnt he still win? And when making plays isn't it to create an illusion of gambling and to actually play solid poker? It almost sounds like people think you can't play solid poker and beat higher games. That you need to be getting out htere doing unorthodox things all the time?

So what do you guys think does solid abc take the money or will he lose?

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

it depends who is in the game.. as always. if it's just regular fish (you do see them up there) then he can win. if it's those near maniac overaggro guys, predictable play will prob. get eaten alive.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

fishboy, your post implies "solid poker" and "solid preflop" are the same thing. Most of the laggy tricky tough players in big games will give action to people who deserve action, and our theoretical tight solid preflop player they will play similarly preflop with a bit of extra hands thrown in because they will be bored and for deception and then destroy the guy after the flop.

It doesn't matter much because your theoretical player hardly exists, you don't become a good preflop player without starting to learn some good postflop things too. You may play 20% of your hands and raise with 12% of them before the flop or whatever but that's not a great preflop player - even preflop is very situational in tough games and the decisions to be made there aren't trivial.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say our theoretical preflop player doesn't exist? I know your not saying that nobody plays abc poker in higher games?

What i'm getting at is if i plays abc correct by the book solid preflop strategy and play solid(meaning not making mistakes but not that tricky) postflop i won't beat toguh games? What do you mean the laggy will destroy me after the flop? How does he do this? If i'm not making mistakes how will he destroy me? By running over me stealing all low flops? Would this work? Your saying they will destroy me is very vague. And what would i have to do to offset they destroying me postflop.

I'm not being sarcastic btw i respect your opinions and enjoy reading your posts.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

One problem is that people who consider themselves to be 'solid abc' define the term based on how they play, or how they play when they're focussed.

So really what they're asking is, "can i win at high stakes poker?". And the reality is that if you have to ask that question, there's almost no chance that you'll be a winner at a high stakes game online.

[ QUOTE ]
What i'm getting at is if i plays abc correct by the book solid preflop strategy and play solid(meaning not making mistakes but not that tricky) postflop i won't beat toguh games? What do you mean the laggy will destroy me after the flop?

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Your definition of "solid abc" is probably not in line with what a good players figures actually would be.

If "solid abc" can be characterized as 30/20/2 with an ASB of 40 at 6max tables; then yes, someone with those characteristics can win.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

An "abc" player probably doesn't defend blinds enough. When they do defend blinds they'll be folding stuff like KT or even an Ace on a 752r flop. If every time you c/r flop in blind defense situation you have a piece, any moderately observant opponent will bet/fold unless they have a good reason to continue.

So basically the "abc" player is getting a new one ripped into them every single blind steal/defense situation which is pretty often in this sort of game. We haven't even taken into account the lags that are going to raise you every single time on the turn when a big card comes.

However it doesn't really matter, because most people aren't that dumb. Eventually they're going to realize that they are just throwing their blinds away before and after the flop and that people are bluffing them constantly postflop and they'll adjust. Some people adjust bad, some adjust good.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

i'm asking a theoretical question if someone plays solid abc will they win is all. Saying if you have to ask you can't is just silly. There are some great players that play low that might be able to beat them but they don't know cause they havent tried so they ask a buddy who plays those games. does that mean they cant be it becasue they asked? You don't know til you try.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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What do you mean the laggy will destroy me after the flop? How does he do this? If i'm not making mistakes how will he destroy me?

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How often your "solid" hand will be best post flop? How often will you flop a pair? How often will you have to call down with A-high or lay down overpair agaist agro opponent?
How can you be possitive that you will be the one "not making a mistake"? The higher you play the more difficult situations you will have to face against players that make thier living by puting opponents to the test post flop and making better dessisions post flop.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

Maybe this will be an insightful post...maybe it won't...

Let's say that "ABC" poker is making the correct play given the limited information available. If someone is playing maniacally, that could involve calling down K or Q high on certain boards. Let's agree that our "ABC" player is capable of this.

His only weakness is that he is predictable. Opponents know the few situations he is likely to bluff in and his bets/calls/raises tend to defend his range pretty narrowly.

How can he lose? Well, if the aggressive players use this additional information available to them to extract the max from him and lose the minimum. If the aggro players play way too loose or spew too much or don't catch on to his predictability, "ABC" can win. But once they know his style, they can find counterstrategies that he can't beat even from a game-theoretic point of view, without adding making his strategy more unpredictable.

In short, if there is asymmetric information sharing between players (so that some players are easier to read than others), then there is an edge that goes to the less predictable players. That edge leads to an EV advantage and also means that the unpredictable player can play more hands profitably than the predictable player.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

You can beat any game if your opponent's play is predictable. If you're predictable you'll lose in a games if it's full of thinking players.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

What adjustment should be made to combat there blind stealing. I am one of those who in your opinion play weak by giving up on flop if i have no piece whatsoever. You are suggesting just making stone bluff moves on flop like checkraising air? It sounds like spewing to me but i'm listneing. Btw the way i look at it is i'm getting 3 half to 1 flop somthing agaisnt his random steal hand. If i don't i get out. I will checraise gutshot flops but AIR? To me i will get punished worse when i make moves with air.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

How and why pete? If i'm getting it in with the best of it how wil i lose? they are the ones spewing in with the worst of it.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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What i'm getting at is if i plays abc correct by the book solid preflop strategy and play solid(meaning not making mistakes but not that tricky) postflop i won't beat toguh games?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is, of course, yes (although everybody really has there own idea of what constitutes "ABC"). Some people seem to think making some "donkey" plays is integral in beating bigger games when that's absolutely not the case. Also, people seem to think that if you play somewhat predictably pre and posflop you'll get "eaten alive" in these bigger games. Well, if by predictably you mean incapable of adjustment sure. If by predictable you mean tighter ranges than most you're way off. Most people in this forum don't seem to think a player is capable of adjusting to an opponents adjustments.

Obviously, I have certain players in mind who play somewhat "predictably" and consistently and soundly beat some of the bigger games online but I know they wouldn't appreciate me discussing their style in this forum.

___1___

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

I know from my own experience that a basically ABC guy (with a dash of deception) can beat the ring 50-100 games at a fair rate.

100-200? I don't know. But I do know that one of the reasons I never moved up to 100-200 was because I considered myself to be too ABC for the game. So, my answer to your question without any first hand knowledge is "no".

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

I think the people who consistently won the most and did the best in the 2p2 games we used to do on Party were people playing significantly different than your traditional abc game.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

I don't understand what abc poker means. Can a tight player (23-25 Vpip for 6 person tables) beat the larger games? Absolutely

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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i'm asking a theoretical question if someone plays solid abc will they win is all. Saying if you have to ask you can't is just silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You havent defined what 'solid abc' is.


If you think what i said is silly, give it a shot. Im sure there'd be approximately 9 people at your table who would greatly appreciate it.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

if by "abc predictable preflop" you mean you constantly make the play with the highest immediate EV (no image plays) - which is "abc" to me - then yes, you can crush 100/200 if you play well otherwise.

if you mean you just play by some hand chart (play x hands from position y for z bets) without any real situational considerations, you're gonna have a tough time winning.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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How and why pete? If i'm getting it in with the best of it how wil i lose? they are the ones spewing in with the worst of it.

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"best of it" is quite rare situation in short game. More often you both will have vulnerable hands. So the winner will be the one who takes the most with worst of it.
And there is always optimal frequency spewing/taking pot uncontested, depending on your opponent. Against a fish you should never spew, against thinking TAG/LAG you MUST spew to be unpredictable or to force opponent to be tooo tight/passive/predictable.

Predictability lets your opponent to make easy folds and easy bluffs (like if you cap PF only with JJ+,AK - it's quite easy to release a hand postflop for your opponent). You should always try to keep you opponent uncertain and predictable so he will start to make mistakes you're waiting for (like calling down too much with thin value or never bluffing, raising only with best of it - it's quite common mistakes against smart LAGs ).

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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You should always try to keep you opponent uncertain and predictable so he will start to make mistakes you're waiting for (like calling down too much with thin value or never bluffing, raising only with best of it - it's quite common mistakes against smart LAGs ).

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. In other words, to beat a high limit game you need to be able to play some poker, not just some cards.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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If i'm getting it in with the best of it

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is 2/7 of the cards and, more importantly, 1/6 of the betting. A slight oversimplification, but you get the idea.

On a related side note: It always bugs me when players complain about losing when they had "the best hand." No. Wrong. Whoever has the best hand at the end wins. The fact that one hand was stronger preflop is beside the point. IMHO, this (widespread) type of thinking [whining] is a major impediment to becoming a really good poker player.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

Put it this way - if you sit down in a 100-200 game for the first time, the best players in the game are not thinking "sweet, I'm going to totally outplay this guy preflop". I think StinkyPete answered your question - I agree with what he said 100%.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
How and why pete? If i'm getting it in with the best of it how wil i lose? they are the ones spewing in with the worst of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

"best of it" is quite rare situation in short game. More often you both will have vulnerable hands. So the winner will be the one who takes the most with worst of it.
And there is always optimal frequency spewing/taking pot uncontested, depending on your opponent. Against a fish you should never spew, against thinking TAG/LAG you MUST spew to be unpredictable or to force opponent to be tooo tight/passive/predictable.

Predictability lets your opponent to make easy folds and easy bluffs (like if you cap PF only with JJ+,AK - it's quite easy to release a hand postflop for your opponent). You should always try to keep you opponent uncertain and predictable so he will start to make mistakes you're waiting for (like calling down too much with thin value or never bluffing, raising only with best of it - it's quite common mistakes against smart LAGs ).

[/ QUOTE ]


Interesting post. Couldnt miss not to post there.I want to disagree with Pete:) Sometimes abc is good just to change gears or vs certain opponents (not neccesary fish). You think if you play abc youre predictable, but what if you know you opponents knows youre predictable? You can turn it into your profit by changing gears or by making non-abc plays but in general contnue to play abc. However fishyboy i think your abc-poker is way different fom what me and Pete think abc-poker is:). Because its much harder not to make mistakes playing abc-poker actually.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been haivng a discussion with different people lately about whether a abc predictable preflop player can beat higher games. Can someone playing very tight solid poker beat higher games? Or do they have to mix it up? And if have to mix it up in what way do you need to mix it up to vere from solid pro play?

If a player plays solid and doeswn't make mistakes how can he not beat any game? I understand that hourly rate might be better if he made some plays sometimes but wouldnt he still win? And when making plays isn't it to create an illusion of gambling and to actually play solid poker? It almost sounds like people think you can't play solid poker and beat higher games. That you need to be getting out htere doing unorthodox things all the time?

So what do you guys think does solid abc take the money or will he lose?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your definition of your theoretical player is very vague. When you say he "doesn't make mistakes," what are you defining as a mistake?

In my opinion, if you have 5 high and your opponent has 8 high but would've folded to that river raise, failing to raise the river is a mistake. So to me, someone who doesn't make mistakes could beat any game anywhere.

But I don't think that's what you mean by "never makes mistakes." For example, if your man has 55 and is facing three or four overcards and bets on the flop and turn, what is your "never makes mistakes" player going to do? Is he a mediocre hand reader that plays by formula in this situation? Or is he a world class hand reader that acts accordingly (though of course often times he will be wrong either in his read or in his expectation of how his opponent will react)?

I have this stereotype that 'ABC players' will tend to be more of the formulaic type and will make many mistakes that you may not even think of as mistakes. This 'ABC player' can beat online 1/2 when the game is really soft, but will in the long run, unless he is extremely game-selective, get eaten alive.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

This thread is pretty worthless because everyone defines ABC differently. I think I am very ABC, but that doesnt mean I can't 3 bet the turn with ace high when I think I am getting messed with. It is certainly not necessary to go ape [censored] with some random 2 cards in order to be unpredictable.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

yes u can beat it with abc play

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

Why dont you try and play in these games. You will find that you are getting played back against a lot, folding a lot, and not winning many big pots. You just asking this question indicates that you are not ready for this game not to mention when you talk about general strategy about spewing. I am not sure what levels you normally play, but you may want to think about staying there for a little while.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

One thought:

1. The very best players in the game tend not to be ABC players.

2. The next-best players in the game tend to be ABC players.

3. The worst players in the game (above and beyond outright fish) tend to be non-ABC players who are running good and mistake holes in their game for "mixing it up".

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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This thread is pretty worthless because everyone defines ABC differently. I think I am very ABC, but that doesnt mean I can't 3 bet the turn with ace high when I think I am getting messed with. It is certainly not necessary to go ape [censored] with some random 2 cards in order to be unpredictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're 100% correct. To me, being called an ABC player would be somewhat of a put-down. But the reality is, in a 6-handed game or more, 95%+ of my decisions are probably ABC, and I believe appropriately so. Whereas you may play very similar to me and will proudly characterize yourself as an ABC player.

Lock this silly thread.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

Lol. I didn't say i was predictable. I just asked if they can beat the game. Well i'm predictable in certain situations like defending the blinds. But i do make moves. In fact i think i spew too mjuch making moves and wondering if i would do better if i went back to my old super-solid play of clean poker that i used to play before i became a nut job lol.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

Do alot of people here bluff raise the river? I barely do this. But have found a player that i have started to play with that this play makes perfect sense as he makes and am gonna try it on him. The problem is i can probably only get away with it once i think as he'll look me up if he ever sees this outrageous play again. But maybe that good because i'll have the goods more often. But in general i dont know too many players bluff rasing the river on a regualr basis.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

See the counter argument to this would be the predictable player is waiting to pick off the spewing thinking player. In a sense catch him with his pants down. He's getting out there stealing with alot of cheese and i'm sitting back waiting for big hands to pound him with.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

[ QUOTE ]
See the counter argument to this would be the predictable player is waiting to pick off the spewing thinking player. In a sense catch him with his pants down. He's getting out there stealing with alot of cheese and i'm sitting back waiting for big hands to pound him with.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. This strategy would probably mot work even at 15/30. If this was all that were required, there'd be MANY thousands of people crushing 100/200.
I don't think you have any inkling of the true dynamics of these games.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

That's a good thought. There are, essentially, two types of player who play different (that is, non-ABC) from the crowd: the great and the dismal.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

No because many thousands of people don't play solid poker. In fact most people don't. It amazing how little do. If they did they would win. There is a reason only 5 percent of all poker players win! You keep thinking its about playing cheese. Maybe it justifies your spewing in your mind. Poker is poker. Don't tell me solid play doesn't get the money. If it doesn't i don't know how i won all these years. Sure you should play the hands you play sometimes creatively but its not all about plaiyng loose aggressive spewing.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No because many thousands of people don't play solid poker. In fact most people don't. It amazing how little do. If they did they would win. There is a reason only 5 percent of all poker players win! You keep thinking its about playing cheese. Maybe it justifies your spewing in your mind. Poker is poker. Don't tell me solid play doesn't get the money. If it doesn't i don't know how i won all these years. Sure you should play the hands you play sometimes creatively but its not all about plaiyng loose aggressive spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

so why did you ask the question?

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

[ QUOTE ]
See the counter argument to this would be the predictable player is waiting to pick off the spewing thinking player. In a sense catch him with his pants down. He's getting out there stealing with alot of cheese and i'm sitting back waiting for big hands to pound him with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe nobody ever thought of this strategy. It is flawless and inexploitable. I am now going to employ your strategy and move up to 100/200 now. let us gogogogo

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

To see what other thought. Because i know there are many that mock the abc guys. But the abc guys usually get the money.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

Thats the whole point. It IS flawless and unexploitable. The people that are exploitable are the laggy's that are making donkey plays getting caught with there pants down. When they are making donkey plays they are hands that are not profitable from the positions they are playing them. They think they can overcome this by "outplaying" the opponent postflop. Maybe they can maybe they can't. That is the argument isn't it? I say they can't.

Re: Can an abc predictable preflop player beat 100-200?
 

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You can beat any game if your opponent's play is predictable. If you're predictable you'll lose in a games if it's full of thinking players.

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like many things in poker I think these things depend on relative values.

"how" predictable
"how" spewy
"how" abc....etc.

If I played 100% predictably and simultaneously perfect game theoretical limit poker, is that exploitable? Is that possible?