this hand is just sick
 

UTG (23/17) raises to 35, UTG+1 3bets to 120, I call OTB w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], UTG calls.

FLOP:
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, I check thinking pot control.

TURN:
3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, I bet like 245 into a pot of like 370, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

RIVER:
4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, I.... wtf?????

Re: this hand is just sick
 

nothing you can do but check right....

Re: this hand is just sick
 

you're allowed to just fold pf... or 4bet..

Re: this hand is just sick
 

well i hate 4betting

and i dont really l ike folding

so calling was best

Re: this hand is just sick
 

check.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

i guess the question i had is

what are they checking the river that beats me???

Re: this hand is just sick
 

anything looking for a c/r, AA/KK/QQ/UTG might have a heart draw.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess the question i had is

what are they checking the river that beats me???

[/ QUOTE ]

J,10o, QQ, KK, AA all shoves the flop, so we can rule that out.

We're ahead here 75% of the time but no sense in betting the river. We're happy with the pot the way it is.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Flat calling preflop is bad unless you have like 200bb stacks or something imo. I don't really understand why you did it.

Checking this river is fine, I don't think AQ is calling you.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

i flatcalled cause im ahead of both their ranges but i get called by the nutters way too often to push

Re: this hand is just sick
 

"ahead of their range" doesn't take into account that you are going to be dumping this postflop a lot...this is probably not the best way to articulate what I'm trying to say (just as vanveen said in KRANTZ's thread, msnl lacks the ability to do anything except post responses to individual hands), maybe bobbofitos can better put into words why there is a strong argument for folding/shoving > calling

In my experience, this is part of squeezing all the edge you can out of these tough, super aggro games. just push and hope they don't have it this time, and if they do it will work itself out over time, because I think it's a profitable way to play it with all the light opening and 3betting going on atm

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
i flatcalled cause im ahead of both their ranges but i get called by the nutters way too often to push

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baluga i know you're an ftg reg etc etc etc i'm sure you are in the green but man this is really awful

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Having villains fold non premium pairs preflop is not a bad thing. You can profitably push even if all they are calling you with is AA/KK/QQ.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

UTG has QQ, UTG+1 has AQ or AK

Re: this hand is just sick
 

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Flat calling preflop is bad unless you have like 200bb stacks or something imo.

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Why would it be better with deeper stacks?

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i flatcalled cause im ahead of both their ranges but i get called by the nutters way too often to push

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baluga i know you're an ftg reg etc etc etc i'm sure you are in the green but man this is really awful

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: this hand is just sick
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Flat calling preflop is bad unless you have like 200bb stacks or something imo.

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Why would it be better with deeper stacks?

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I mean, I'm just saying I would consider it at that point. With 100bbs the shove is automatic for me.

If you are deep and you 4 bet, and the other deep guy calls, it is really expensive to cbet. This might be a really superficial excuse to flat call, and I would still probably raise, but it seems like something to think about.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Assuming this is 6-handed just muck preflop.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Firstly effective stacks and some reads, Im going to assume its 100bbs and 6max...

the call PF is fine, though it really does narrow your range [kinda like calling a 3bet cold w JJ in FR limit, which I hat FWIW]

i like the flop check, i feel the turn bet is standard

I also dont mind a river check, as what worse hands are calling? AQ,AJ,KQ? Theres just too much out there that beats you.

JT

Re: this hand is just sick
 

a few things:
1) its not like I flatcalled cause I was like "oh shtt, they probably have the nutters fit or fold!". I flatcalled cause i had position, cause I thought it was reasonable that one of them would have a weaker ace and I might win a big pot if we both hit. basically, position was why i called. I would never call w/ AK oop like this.
2) I hate 4bet pushing cause it overreps my hand. Its a different situation in the BB when the button raises and the SB 3bet (thanks twp)

In retrospect, folding pf is fine... i guess ive just been trained to not fold AK pf. AK+position i thought could make it into a call. I guess not.

oh well, i never professed to be the shtt at poker or anything so im still here to learn, haha

Re: this hand is just sick
 

oh and btw i forgot to mention this in the OP, but i am pretty sure that UTG+1 is bad. I dont remember who he is though, so sorry if he's one of you

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) its not like I flatcalled cause I was like "oh shtt, they probably have the nutters fit or fold!". I flatcalled cause i had position, cause I thought it was reasonable that one of them would have a weaker ace and I might win a big pot if we both hit. basically, position was why i called. I would never call w/ AK oop like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats precisely the reason why I agreed with your flatcall.

JT

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
a few things:
1) its not like I flatcalled cause I was like "oh shtt, they probably have the nutters fit or fold!". I flatcalled cause i had position, cause I thought it was reasonable that one of them would have a weaker ace and I might win a big pot if we both hit. basically, position was why i called. I would never call w/ AK oop like this.


[/ QUOTE ]

how did this work out for you in this hand? we have one of the better flops we could hope for and yet we are afraid to put money in.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]

how did this work out for you in this hand? we have one of the better flops we could hope for and yet we are afraid to put money in.


[/ QUOTE ]
certainly the flop was good for me, although definitely a lot scarier than an Axx flop. In theory it didn't work out that badly for me (except that UTG rivered a flush with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).. i felt like i had control of the pot.

However, I dont really see how that was worse than pushing and taking down a small pot or losing my stack.

As i said before, I think folding is probably best.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

how did this work out for you in this hand? we have one of the better flops we could hope for and yet we are afraid to put money in.


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certainly the flop was good for me, although definitely a lot scarier than an Axx flop. In theory it didn't work out that badly for me (except that UTG rivered a flush with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).. i felt like i had control of the pot.

However, I dont really see how that was worse than pushing and taking down a small pot or losing my stack.

As i said before, I think folding is probably best.

[/ QUOTE ]

your reverse implied odds suck when you call. you have to excercise pot control and often check when you hit a pair because the strength of your hand is so faceup when you bet. Your positional advantage is not that great because you are in a 3 way reraised pot and so much money goes in preflop.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

i would prob just fold preflop if the table hadnt been very active. if it was i am 4 betting. calling cold just creates awkward spots where its obvious if u hit your hand and it will be hard to get value from it/not get stacked

Re: this hand is just sick
 

and I disagree. This flop is better than Axx assuming xx is lower than J.

I would much rather have AKQ flop rather than a AT9 or AT8 flop.

if you think villain's range is so narrow that you have to excercise pot control on a AKQ flop, you should really just fold preflop.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

oh with an UTG raise and an UTG+1 reraise I am folding this almost always

Re: this hand is just sick
 

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oh with an UTG raise and an UTG+1 reraise I am folding this almost always

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Mee too, unless UTG is a known donk, so UTg+1 might isolating him.In that case i'd probably just push.
And why is there even a question on the river?
The only hand that might call a moderate bet on this board and you beat is AQ.All the others have you crushed.If there wasn't a 3rd heart, i might bet like 2/5 the pot for value and that's really villain dependand as well.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Is it even possible to play any weaker by any of you? UTG has rivered a flush and checks? You have toptwo and check turn after they both checked flop AND turn? I like your play preflop and flop but turn and river is horrible imo.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

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Is it even possible to play any weaker by any of you? UTG has rivered a flush and checks? You have toptwo and check turn after they both checked flop AND turn? I like your play preflop and flop but turn and river is horrible imo.

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TURN:

UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, I bet like 245 into a pot of like 370, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Oops, sorry my mistake. Well played.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

today i flat called a reraise with AK

it was pretty awesome

Re: this hand is just sick
 

Why would you play for potcontrol with 360 in the pot already?

Assuming 100bb stacks, I think it´s better just to bet the flop and have JJ/TT fold, it´s not like you are going to make much from those hands anyway.

Think you can push the river, maybe AQ calls, maybe AK folds, not really sure, but doesn´t look like you are behind, given the potsize and remaining stacks...again assuming 100bb....

Edit: I dont like coldcalling AK to 3 bets, I´d rather reraise if I think their ranges are wide enough or fold if they are too tight.
I could see coldcalling if it would make them likely to check-fold the flop in fear of AA/KK, but they will still lose money on Axx flops if they hold the ace...

Re: this hand is just sick
 

I like the flop check but why didn't you bet more on the turn?

I insta-check this river. They're calling with what worse hands? Maybe AQ but even that would be bad...

- C -

Re: this hand is just sick
 

[ QUOTE ]
today i flat called a reraise with AK

it was pretty awesome

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you know your never allowed to do that. You must have been on mega tilt.

Re: this hand is just sick
 

i think amoeba hit this head on