High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I like to consider myself a bit of a gourmet. Perhaps "foodie" is more appropriate. I enjoy cooking, finding cool new restaurants around town before the crowds (and Time Out) make it impossible to get in the door, and a few times a year, eating something remarkable at a high-end restaurant. I'm sure there's many of you who do the same.

By high-end, I'd like to restrict discussion to places where you can very reasonably expect your bill for food only to be >$75 (pre tax and tip). The range of discussion may include things as "pedestrian" as a good steakhouse and things as "snooty" as Per Se.

I'd like to discuss what you expect before you walk in the door of any such place, what you look forward to, perhaps what you don't, and also hear reviews of specific places, and how they stacked up both to your expectations of that particular place and your personal concepts of high-end dining.

For instance, I expect the food to be excellently prepared, never have to send anything back, ever, the wait-staff to be knowledgable and good at their jobs, the space to be clean, etc.

There's also I think probably two main categories of such restaurants:

1) Serves food that everyone is likely to like/love everything they order. Traditional preparations, perhaps jazzed up or just prepared with super-great ingredients.

2) Serves food that they are pretty sure most diners will not really enjoy at least one part of their meal. Food tends to be more experimental or "experimental" or whatever the word is, and the menus tend to be ordered "as a menu" as opposed to as individual plates.

As examples:

A couple weekends ago I ate dinner at Spiaggia, a traditional Italian restaurant in Chicago, which somewhat routinely wins awards for things like "best restaurant in the midwest. When I walked in, I expected fantastic service, great surroundings, white tablecloths, fresh pasta, great wine list, and in general, the sort of filling Italian meal, with ingredients you normally can't find outside of Italy, that you don't expect to find outside of a nice place in Italy. I was not disappointed on any aspect of this. This would be a type 1 place, even though they do have complete menus for ordering, we ordered individual dishes.

Last year, I ate at Aureole in Las Vegas with a couple of other degen poker players. We expected semi-nightlife buzz to the place, women in cat-suits climbing a tower of wine, and somewhat more "experimental" food, with good service, obvious large wine selection, etc. What we got was significantly different. Though we ate at about 8:30pm on a weekend, the place was very quiet except for the bar area, there was no one climbing the tower as far as we could tell, and though we took abut 2.5 hours for dinner, the place was entirely empty when we left. Though the service was great, and the tablet-PC wine ordering is cool, there was at least one dish that when the waiter brought it to table he said "as a warning, almost no one likes all 3 of these things." (He was referring to a plate containing 3 preparations of tuna tartar, one rolled in chocolate (fairly disgusting). On the whole, a good meal, but clearly a different experience than Spiaggia.

So, which type of high-end food do you prefer? Are you open to both? What do you "get" out of the experience? What are some of your favorite high-end places?

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

for what i would consider "high end" i expect more than i expect. manhattan does this much better than l.a. when you go to a place like gotham or babbo you just leave saying wow, i had no idea... when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent. when mario opens osteria mozza in l.a. in a few weeks well see if he brings the manhattan food experience to l.a.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Before I even consider the food, one of my primary expectations is the service will be impeccable and the server will be able to comment on pretty much all aspects of every meal. I never want to be at a high end restaurant and have a waiter that doesn't know exactly what an ingredient is, how something tastes, what goes well together, etc.

Our society has chosen that servers will be tipped not based upon length of meal, times they refilled our drinks, but solely on a percentage of the price of the food. I could spend near the same length of time eating at a family restaurant and pay $10 tip as at a high-end restaurant, paying $35 tip. Just as the food is more expensive because it is of a higher quality, the service is more expensive, and thus should be of a superior quality.

I have rarely been disappointed with the service, and I've even been wowed a few times with how much the server seemed to know about everything. Basically, if I'm paying a couple hundred for my girlfriend and I to eat, I want a waiter that is a professional, not some summer job teenager. I'm still a student myself, so my budget only allows a few of these dinners a year, so in addition to be very special occasions, they are also learning experiences. I don't want someone to bring food from the kitchen to my table, I want a guide on that journey of food exploration.

(Feel free to respond to this post, but please do not let this turn into a tipping thread, that's not what my post wss about.)

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
for what i would consider "high end" i expect more than i expect ... just leave saying wow, i had no idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

limon,

I feel very strongly about this. The meals that I qualify as "the best I've ever eaten" all have this "whoa, that was really great and (as you said) transcendent." If it was just some nice food, I don't get that. For example while you can spend a lot of money at a steakhouse, there's basically nothing that comes out of the kitchen that doesn't taste at least very close to what you expect. There's no surprises. I think that you nailed it though, when I pay a lot for "an Italian dinner" instead of just eating at a local fairly nice place, I'm expecting to get something on the lines of "well I hadn't had anything like that before, wow!"

Noah,

I definitely don't want to see this turn in to a tipping thread, but I'd like to address a couple issues:

-I don't think I've ever spent 5 hours in a family restaurant unless you count hanging around, drinking and watching a game "spending time." But I get your point. You could "eat dinner" and pay less to the server somewhere else, so the service should be damn good. I totally agree.

-In general most high-end places only hire people to wait tables who have good resumes, and have worked their way up the food world. The interview processes can be pretty ridiculous in terms of just taste recognition, knowledge, etc. The largest lack of knowledge I've sen at good places are:

"I'll get the sommelier to help you with the wine" and

"I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to taste that yet as it is new to the menu, but I have heard x from customers so far."

The only place that sticks out in my mind for the service having a pretty gaping flaw was at Charlie Trotter's. Our waiter saw and heard us commenting on the reviews/top 10 lists they have framed on the wall and talking about another restaurant and at some points stuck his head in to join the conversation. I thought this was pretty wildly inappropriate, but led to a couple of funny moments during dinner.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

limon,

[ QUOTE ]
when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
By high-end, I'd like to restrict discussion to places where you can very reasonably expect your bill for food only to be >$75 (pre tax and tip).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really mean high end by this? You have restaurants that are not extraordinary at all in many European cities where you end up paying more (maybe it is cheaper in the US). At $75 I expect a good, nice meal, but not anything super special.

Up the limit to >$200 and then you can start to expect something. At $200 I expect:
-Attention. Quick service, but also waiter who not as default tries to get away from the table, but as default talks a bit about the food, what's going on with ingredients and such. A waiter who doesn't really try sell you anything or speed up the ordering process, you order whenever it suits you. Also not some pretensious [censored] who is more busy showing off his knowledge than actually making sure you have a great experience.
-Not nitty. If it gets into the $500-range or so including wine and drinks I like that they serve you some delicious snack while you wait for the appetizer, serve you a welcome drink etc. and do not put in on the bill. It is not because I am cheap, I can pay for it, just makes the atmosphere nicer, you get to try some small pieces of some exclusive food or drink without risking anything.
-Perfect ingredients, the food can be a bit too hot or a bit too cold or a bit too cooked or whatever for your taste, they aren't psychics, but the ingredients should be 100% perfect, for not doing this there is no excuse.
-Also I expect them to have relatively unique dishes, must be a chef who has spent much time finding some new combinations or something to put the food up one notch and also in combination with the waiter makes sure that the wholeness with wine, dishes and drinks you order and wine, dishes and drinks they served you anyway makes perfect. I.e. avoid the situation where you sit and drink some wine and then they serve you a new dish that doesn't suit that wine and then a new wine. Make sure I/we are at the right wine, then serve the food.
-Zero questions policy. Ok, I say I didn't want that dish, then bring it back and give me whatever I think I ordered. If I figure out that I would like to walk home instead of taking the taxi just cancel the taxi and pay the driver to shut up (I put an extra $20 tip for that anyway). Don't discuss what was said/done or defend yourself, I hold no grudge, just want to have a perfect night. In all, don't do anything such that destroys the harmony, leaving the door too long open so that it gets cold or whatever.

It has lived up to expectations in that price range, however in the $75 to $200 there have been plenty of disappointments, that's why I put the mark higher.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
The largest lack of knowledge I've sen at good places are:

"I'll get the sommelier to help you with the wine" and

"I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to taste that yet as it is new to the menu, but I have heard x from customers so far."


[/ QUOTE ]

If the restaurant has a sommelier, I don't think this is a bad thing to say. But I firmly believe all servers should have tasted all dishes. At a minimum they should be able to describe the dish in depth (ingredients and preperation).

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

@ +$75/person (no tip, tax, drinks), I expect a pretty solid over all meal.

Service...
- I expect wait staff to know details about <u>all</u> dishes...intimate ones regarding where the food came from along with something about the preparation technique used by the chef.
- I expect them to be able to make recommendations on the wine (with reasons to support their recommendation) or call over the sommelier.
- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).
- I expect the servers to be friendly.
- I want to see that they are passionate about the food/wine they are serving.
- I expect them to bring out a new "tasting glass" if I order a second bottle of the same wine...or two new glasses should I change it up.

Food...
I expect to see a menu composed of innovative dishes that I have never had before. I expect everything to be cooked to perfection...and seasoned just right.

I prefer the timing to be a little on the slow side than too fast in regards to the speed that the courses are brought out. This involves communication between the front of the house and the back of the house...a good expediter goes a long way to making this happen.


I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

El Sapo,

I agree to a point. Obviously situations can arise where things happen like there is a new dish on the menu that and the server has simply not had a chance.

Arfinn,

In the US, there just flat out aren't that many places you can find with expected $200 on just food. (This is just food, per diner.)

The menus at per se, NY, are $250.
Grand tasting menu at Moto, Chicago, $165.
Tour menu at Alina, Chicago, $195.
Babbo, NY, $70.

I'm sure there's a bunch of places that are quite expensive that I'm not remembering, but these are just a few places that are definitely "high end." While $75 might be too low for the US as well, it might not be, I dno. I wanted to leave the possibility that people could talk about things like a good steakhouse or a good fishmarket type restaurant, or many of the excellent sushi places out there. This old page (2005 Forbes) lists the "most expensive restaurants in the US." While it's clearly out of date, it lists alinea (prices above) at #2. Obviously many of these places also hit you pretty hard for a bottle or flight of wine, but that's sort of a user-defined price instead of menu price to eat food.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]

Arfinn,

In the US, there just flat out aren't that many places you can find with expected $200 on just food. (This is just food, per diner.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I have never been to the US. It is probably a bit difficult to compare across countries, because if I eat a $50 food meal in Poland I expect it to be very good.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I'm open to and eat at both, but prefer the 'best-in-class' to the more 'experimental' dining, for example Daniel &gt; WD-40. To me, Service is clearly the differentiating factor btw two great restaurants, once you get above a certain level of french food, or spanish, or italian, or chinese, it becomes very hard to differentiate btw the quality of a Jean-George, a Daniel, a Bouley, a Robuchon, a Keller, etc, unless you are a true gourmand. Decor is also a factor, but again at these places they are all done up so that may come down to personal taste - do you like Cafe Des Artistes or a per se, or the Four Seasons.

Daniel was the best dining experience I've ever had [2x.], whether in NYC, LV, LA, Philly, Barca or elsewhere. Marcus, the host, remembered me when we entered from one prior visit, knew exactly why we were there w/o being told again [birthday], the service was beyond exquisite, the waiters were incredibly attentive and yet invisible, they could write you a book on each dish on the menu. The food is rated 2nd best in all of NYC by Zagat's, so I'll just agree that it is flawless, the sommelier can answer any question about wine {I've been with oenophiles} and the dessert is simply the best I've ever tasted.
While the decor is the best in town, the service really makes it stand out. They must have like 4-6 people per table, not including everyone you don't see, of course, and never intrusive. Obviously, you can sit there all night and not feel hurried in any sense [not true of some places!].
Bonus: As we were approaching the coat-check, we met Daniel Boulud and told him how much we loved our dinners. He took us to the bar and wanted to know all about it, and had a drink with us before returning to the kitchen.

Other faves: Alain Ducasse, Le Bec-fin, Drolma.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

For not too expensive restaurant that has great standard I recommend this one in Oslo. Everything is perfect (or at least used to be, haven't been in Oslo for a year):

Dinner

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I don't think my lunch $$ is gonna be enough for you to get into these places, [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

How excited are you about finding a place that is under $75 but still delicious? Whenever I hear you talk about this topic I kinda get the feeling that part of what you're in it for is the "status" of having been to "impressive" restaurants.

On the other hand, I get the feeling someone like El D is interested very much in both. He wants to get cheap awesome food, medium expensive awesome food and the uber high status food as well. Is the deal simply that you already pwn at cheap good food and medium expensive good food?

Yugoslav
Who simply wants to be good at medium expensive good food, lol.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]

- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).

I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

One thing that I think a lot of high end joints lose track of is that I expect to be full at the end of dinner.

I lived in New Orleans for 4 years and one of my favorite things about the top places in NO is that you always left stuffed.

In NY, a few times I've stopped for a $2 slice of pizza on my way home from a $100 dinner.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
How excited are you about finding a place that is under $75 but still delicious? Whenever I hear you talk about this topic I kinda get the feeling that part of what you're in it for is the "status" of having been to "impressive" restaurants.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can obviously find excellent food &lt;$75. But still the best restaurants I have been to have been more expensive, but has something to do with the total atmosphere, more than simply the food. If it would be available for $20, then great. It is also a matter of priorities, save $3k on your purchases of car, furniture etc. and give you and your Mrs. some nights you will remember for life instead, it is much more happiness/$ in my opinion. Your pretentiousness radar should beep more on expensive watches and such, a douchebag is more likely to spend his money on that.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

yugo,

i like all manner of food, and am defnitely not in to high end dining for any sort of checklist type behavior. many of my favorite restaurants are in the $15-$30 total food bill range. this just isn't a thread about those places. i enjoy going out to these high-end places for splurges, special occasions, random fridays if i'm lucky, etc, but as i said, they probably only happen a few times a year. the rest of the year i eat dinner most nights too, and usually even enjoy it.

fluff,

i hope you find answers to your question in this thread, as it was in part the question asked in the OP. i think we've seen a few common answers: service, ingredients, knowledge, details, food quality, preparation quality, uniqueness, to be shocked, entertained, etc. hopefully more answers from more people as we go along.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
limon,

[ QUOTE ]
when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, patina and grace are excellent, campanile and aoc as well, easy 9 out of 10 jar i would give 8.5. but i cant really say i've had a 10 in l.a. again places like gotham and babbo are just on another level. incredible creativity and all the little extras that fit perfectly w/ the meal.no 10's for me in vegas either but i have yet to visit joel rubichon.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

To get that Nirvana-moment where everything with the company, locale, food, wine is perfect, the 5 seconds where you realize how lucky you are to be living and how wonderful life at its best is.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).

I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the $75 number is including starters and dessert, not just the entree. In which case you have been to plenty of places that qualify...

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

are you talking &gt;75 if you order every course? my favorite bay area restaurants (oliveto's, postrio, piperade, etc) are easily under this if i eat normally (a salad or appetizer, main meal dessert), but might squeek by over the line if I get all courses. maybe i'm just a slob, but as far as service, food quality and, server knowledge, selection, and innovation, i can't find much wrong with these places.
otoh, the handfull of &gt;75 restaurants i've been to (french laundry, danko, etc) have had this as well, but also a certain something extra. maybe a closer attention to detail in the presentation, or a little more experimentation in using offbeat local ingredients in non-traditional manners.

since i had my son, though, i've been more into the double secret hole in the wall places.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Arfinn,

I think maybe there was a language barrier or something prior to your first post in this thread. I can't find a list of all that many places at all in the world that are close to $500 per diner, just for food. The premise was 1 person, just the food, no alcohol/drinks. If you can give me a few examples of these places you've had $500 meals, I'll stand corrected, but I think we're talking about the same places, honestly.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
Arfinn,

I think maybe there was a language barrier or something prior to your first post in this thread. I can't find a list of all that many places at all in the world that are close to $500 per diner, just for food. The premise was 1 person, just the food, no alcohol/drinks. If you can give me a few examples of these places you've had $500 meals, I'll stand corrected, but I think we're talking about the same places, honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the $500 I included wine and drinks, reread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the food is better, and to get that Nirvana-moment where everything with the company, locale, food, wine is perfect, the 5 seconds where you realize how lucky you are to be living and how wonderful life at its best is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the food is better

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, of course. But the two best food experiences, I have ever had was cheap. One is in fast food-joint in Oslo where it works a Japanese sushi chef who sometimes shows you that you should try this (probably when he has found that one special fish), he doesn't speak anything else than yes and no [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and when he does it is just fantastic, no sushi restaurant I have ever been to beats that.

Other one is with my friend being drunk in Poland at 4am, walking through a forest a bit hungry and out of nowhere comes some guy and tells us that his wife is a great cook, so we go to some tent and eat different dishes until early morning, of some just 2-3 spoons to have space for everything and it was all fabolous, I still sometimes think it must have been a dream, too absurd to be true [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

All,

All this discussion is great, but let's get some more reviews here!

So, general thoughts first.

The high-end restaurants that Cit is talking about are places that when it's all said and done are gonna be more like $125+/person restaurants, and often $150+ (of course wine can easily take this far higher). In the US, chef's tasting menus at high-end restaurants are generally $80-120. That's the kind of restaurant we're talking about in this thread.

So what do I want/expect:

Food: Main thing I want is to think that nothing put in front of me is so-so. Now, I might not like a certain taste, that is fine. But if they are serving chicken, I never want to be like, well OK that is just like the roasted chicken at that neighborhood rotisserie place.

Service: AM summed it up pretty well. I want the waiter to be attentive, but not intrusive. Let us control what's going on in the dinner. He should provide info, but not be pushy or pretentious. It's all about taking cues from us. Being knowledgeable about what to recommend based on asking us a few questions is huge. At a place that is not a fixed menu, being able to suggest the appropriate amount of food to order is very important.

Ambience: I don't want tables to be too close together. I don't want it to be too loud. I want all the little things to be right.

As for the styles cit described, I am a fan of both styles. The "best of class" restaurants where they do some style that exists at a lower price point, just really really well (places like Delmonico's or Craftsteak for steaks, Nobu for sushi, for example) or places that are more creative and the chef is going to town with a tasting menu highlighting all sorts of differnet foods/techniques. Some places fall sort of in the middle with a few courses that you mix and match between. I like them all.

Here are a few of the ones I've been to relatively recently that I'll review in this thread if nobody beats me to them.

Nobu (Vegas/NYC/London, sushi)
Dining Room at Ritz Carlton (SF, tasting menu)
Gary Danko (SF, hybrid)
Quince (SF, hybrid)
Delmonico's (Vegas, steak)
Craftsteak (NYC, steak)
Michael Mina (SF, tasting menu)

Of these, I was very impressed and highly recommend the first four. Craftsteak was very good, but only the steak was really noteworthy. The sides and starters were all very good, but did not blow us away like I expect at a high-end place. Michael Mina was a disappointment and the only one that I would not recommend.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Masked Man,

I'm interested in hearing what you and others have to say about Gary Danko...it's high up on the list of places we plan on going to soon.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Citanul,

What did you like in Chicago? (I think we've had this conversation before in another thread, though maybe not so restricted to high-end stuff.)

I enjoyed Charlie Trotter's, although it was so hyped that when I went maybe I it couldn't quite meet expectations. That said, it was an excellent meal. I preferred Tru though. The restaurant itself seems more open and bright (Trotter's small house seems almost oppressive) and the food was better tasting. Trotter's food was a little more eclectic and lighter, Tru's a little more rich. The candy cart at the end of Tru's meal was fun. Service was excellent at both. One cool thing was that Trotter's gives you a tour of the kitchen/restaurant if you ask. Man, the kitchen is small considering how many people are cooking their butts off back there.

Arun's (high end Thai, for those not familiar) was very good but maybe not quite as transcendant as I would expect for the price. Maybe that's my bias though - being Asian, I like the down-home authentic type of Asian cooking, and Arun's is super-fancy royal Thai cuisine. Service not quite as polished as Trotter's/Tru.

I was not particularly impressed with Spiaggia - I felt that it was overpriced. The Italian food was not SO excellent that I felt it was worth the extra money over a nice (though inferior, of course) Italian place. Have you been to Alinea? Or Moto? (Since we're discussing experimental places)

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

The Dining Room at the Ritz Carlton

Went here recently. The chef is Ron Siegel. For high-end restaurant fans, here's his resume: cook at Aqua, cook at Daniel, sous-chef at French Laundry, chef Charles Nob Hill, chef Masa's. He also beat Sakai in the Japanese version of Iron Chef.

They have a few different options for menus ranging from three to nine courses. Menu

We went with the salt and pepper tasting menu, where each course features a differnet type of salt and pepper used for seasoning.

You are seated and they offer you a cocktail or champagne before dinner, they have a nice chilled cart of champagnes to select from.

The decor is a tad stuffy, as this is an older Ritz that has not gotten the new-school hip remodel that some of the newer Ritz's have. It's not bad, just a little dated feeling. Also, because it is in a Ritz, the customers skew towards the old side, adding to a bit of the stuffy feeling. These are pretty minor issues, though. The chairs are nice and comfortable, the lighting is at a good level, the room is not noisy, and the tables are not too close.

Then about 4 of 5 amuse bouches (tiny pre-meal bites to whet your palate) are brought out one after another, they just kept coming. There was some soup, some caviar, a savory mousse, a couple others. One preparation that just blew me away was a smoked dish that was on top of a little plastic covered smoke-filled bowl. Tapping on the plastic released smoke, creating an incredibly seasoned bite.

Around this time the sommelier came by to suggest some wines we might like.

The courses were all very good. A couple of raw fish, foie gras, some lobster, duck breast, some cooked fish, steak, etc. In general, you get this type of mix, but the specific dishes are always changing. The lobster and pork belly combo was a real highlight, but everything was just delicious. The only minor complaint was that occassionally the pacing would be slightly off between courses, I am sure this is because of trying to keep multiple tables with the same tasting menu on the same schedule. This was never an issue of any significance, just could have been slightly more even.

The amount of food is very filling. There were substantial portions of everything. My friend could not finish her delicious steak course, so I had to help her out. Yum.

Sometimes the dishes just used the salt and pepper as flavor elements, but in a couple they really highlightest a special salt or pepper as a central element. Very cool theme.

After dinner had some espresso. Even though you are stuffed at this point, they bring by a tray with all sorts of little petit fours, mini cookies and cakes and tarts and cheesecakes and chocolates. You just point and pick whatever you want from there.

Dinner concludes and they give everyone a tiny little box with a couple of caramels in it as a little memento of your trip.

The whole dinner is 2.5 to 3 hours and you leave there feeling like it was an experience, not just a meal.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.

The last time I went there we sat at the bar and had the four course menu. If you get there early you can sit down at the bar and have the full menu, nice to know for those of us who aren't great at reserving in advance (Danko you generally need to reserve at least a couple of weeks in advance).

I think I got:

Seared Foie Gras w/ Caramelized Red Onions and Fuji Apples

Seared Sea Scallops (a differnet preparation than what is on the current website menu)

Cheese Course - highly recommend doing this at Danko. You each get to select three cheeses (this used to be four, weak) from an incredible selection of cheeses.

Dessert - I think for dessert we got the trio of creme brulee and either the chocolate-raspberry tart or chocolate souffle.

All the desserts I've had there are great. Actually, just about everything I've had there is amazing. I highly, highly recommend Gary Danko.

It is definitely high-end, very nice dining room, ambience, etc. However, it is not stuffy at all. More of a California-style high-end ambience, which is a little more modern feel than someplace like the Ritz or a traditional high-end French place.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

i come from a family of fine dining psychos, but i'm pretty easy to please - at the same time i'm not often impressed.

there are only a few places i've eaten that i would consider memorable - and i've eaten at a lot of "name" spots:

the most amazing restaurant experience of my life occurred about 10 yrs ago at everest in chicago. i guess the place is fairly well known now, but back then it was not. it's located at the top of the chicago stock exchange building. back then, the loop area was dead at night - almost deserted. i remember we drove down an alley to a beat up looking garage door which magically opened and lead to a dingy parking lot. things weren't looking to good. we got into an equally unimpressive elevator and pressed 40. i was with some of my fine dining psycho relatives and could feel the tension building during our ascent. what was probably seconds before one of them pulled the emergency stop switch so we could reverse course, the elevator doors opened onto the most opulent dining room i had ever seen.

there were probably 15 tables max, and the space was large but warm. everything there was aesthetically perfect. the flowers, the silver, the plates, the glasses, the colors, the view. it was amazing.

the staff was attentive - almost too much so - and knowledgeable about EVERYTHING - which actually was kind of annoying. i really don't care where the mushrooms were grown . the whole thing was such a scene that it was kind of ridiculous - but it was at the same time, just awesome. not the casual "awesome" we use in everyday speech - but the awesome used to describe things like god and natural disasters. the food was excellent, but was merely a sidelight to the experience.

everest taught me my first real lesson in brand building. they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and executed it flawlessly. you could just tell that someone had probably spent a few days settling on what kind of matches they would offer, and which flowers communicated what they were about. a great experience.

another that comes to mind is a private men's club in richmond, va, called the commonwealth club. it's essentially a place where old white guys go to get away from their wives, but it boasts one of my favorite dining rooms anywhere. the service is PERFECT. invisible, but helpful. knowledgeable, but humble. and the food is phenomenal. fine dining with a slight southern flare.

the last is le bec fin in philadelphia. i think they produce the best meals in the world.

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).

I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the $75 number is including starters and dessert, not just the entree. In which case you have been to plenty of places that qualify...

[/ QUOTE ]

Fluff and NL -
yeah...$75+ includes apps/salad/entree/desert or total cost of the tasting menu.

to put this in perspective...I've never spent $500+ on a meal for two including tip and wine...but then again I live in Atl and not NY, LV, CHI, or SF

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I CALL DELMONICO VEGAS

Just gimme a little while to get it together.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

This is sort of a trip report/review combo, because I'm in no way qualified to write a legit review.

Two Saturdays ago, fellow 2p2er rageotones, four of my other friends, my girlfriend (thinly veiled brag?), and I all went to Delmonico in Vegas for the first time. Our reservations were at 6; we would have liked them to be a bit later, but it was a Saturday night, so we took what we could get. Three of us got there a bit early, so we had a seat in the little lounge outside the restaurant.

I ordered a martini with Ciroc. The cocktail waitress asked me if I wanted regular or blue cheese olives in that. Of course I had to dry the blue cheese olives; both they and the martini were great. Our friend (the third one of the three of us) wasn't accustomed to a nice restaurant, so she tried to order a white zinfandel (LOL). They didn't have that obviously, but the waitress was very nice about it and recommended a Riesling which she liked a lot.

So the rest of our party shows up and we're seated almost immediately thereafter. They gave us a big round table, which is way superior to a rectangular table for conversational purposes, so that was awesome. We also had not one, not two, but THREE SERVERS. Wow.

So we decide to start off with some wine--something lighter to go with the appetizers and stuff. Their wine list is nothing short of intimidating at 80 pages, but we decide to go on the medium-low end because we're not super balla. So we got some $80 bottle of Pinot Noir, which was pretty good. Unfortunately I can't remember the names of any of the wines, and they don't have an online wine list to refresh my memory, so, sorry.

For appetizers we got the mozzarella bruchetta, the oysters bienville, and the foie gras. Everything was good, but the foie gras was unbelievable. I had never had it before--to be honest it always sounded gross to me--but now I'm hooked. Like a yummy piece of fat that falls apart in your mouth. Delish.

For entree I got the bone-in rib steak, which is supposedly like the standard thing to get there. It was excellent--done perfectly rare in the middle with the outside almost crisp. I also had a twice baked potato and split some creamed spinach with my friend, and both sides were very solid. By this point we're on bottle #2 -- a malbec. My favorite bottle of the night personally, but some were weirded out by the big chunks of sediment at the bottom.

Girlfriend got some special that came with a 5 oz. filet and some lobster claws. She thought it was kinda weird that they didn't bring any butter to go with the lobster, but she figured out why when she tasted it--you don't need it. Putting butter on this would be like putting A1 on their steaks. Apparently it comes from Nova Scotia where the water's colder than Maine, so it was extra sweet.

Bottle #3 was a cab. We went down to like $60 for the third bottle because we knew we'd stop being picky after a while.

Overall, this was the best restaurant experience I've ever had. The service was absolutely perfect; stuff just kinda showed up. You never thought "wow that was fast" but you never wondered what was taking so long either. Everything was perfectly in sync. Our main waitress was very personable, and even took time to discuss the merits of My Super Sweet Sixteen with us. A+.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
i come from a family of fine dining psychos, but i'm pretty easy to please - at the same time i'm not often impressed.

there are only a few places i've eaten that i would consider memorable - and i've eaten at a lot of "name" spots:

the most amazing restaurant experience of my life occurred about 10 yrs ago at everest in chicago. i guess the place is fairly well known now, but back then it was not. it's located at the top of the chicago stock exchange building. back then, the loop area was dead at night - almost deserted. i remember we drove down an alley to a beat up looking garage door which magically opened and lead to a dingy parking lot. things weren't looking to good. we got into an equally unimpressive elevator and pressed 40. i was with some of my fine dining psycho relatives and could feel the tension building during our ascent. what was probably seconds before one of them pulled the emergency stop switch so we could reverse course, the elevator doors opened onto the most opulent dining room i had ever seen.

there were probably 15 tables max, and the space was large but warm. everything there was aesthetically perfect. the flowers, the silver, the plates, the glasses, the colors, the view. it was amazing.

the staff was attentive - almost too much so - and knowledgeable about EVERYTHING - which actually was kind of annoying. i really don't care where the mushrooms were grown . the whole thing was such a scene that it was kind of ridiculous - but it was at the same time, just awesome. not the casual "awesome" we use in everyday speech - but the awesome used to describe things like god and natural disasters. the food was excellent, but was merely a sidelight to the experience.

everest taught me my first real lesson in brand building. they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and executed it flawlessly. you could just tell that someone had probably spent a few days settling on what kind of matches they would offer, and which flowers communicated what they were about. a great experience.

another that comes to mind is a private men's club in richmond, va, called the commonwealth club. it's essentially a place where old white guys go to get away from their wives, but it boasts one of my favorite dining rooms anywhere. the service is PERFECT. invisible, but helpful. knowledgeable, but humble. and the food is phenomenal. fine dining with a slight southern flare.

the last is le bec fin in philadelphia. i think they produce the best meals in the world.

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.

[/ QUOTE ]

le bec in philly is my wifes fav restuarant on the planet. she gets a $90 truffled risoto appetizer and bernard meets her at the table and says its better than sex w/ her husband (me)

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Claunchy,

Nice review. Delmonico's in Vegas is a perfect example imo of non-stuffy high-end dining. It's nice and classic and classy, while at the same time not feeling old. It's lit at a nice level, not too bright but not such that you have to squint to read the menus by the candle. The only black mark for this restaurant is the bathrooms. The men's is a pretty small restroom that is tucked in the back and is fine, but I expect it to be more perfect at a place like this. Service, as you mentioned, is great. You didn't mention one of my favorite touches at this and some other high end restaurants, how everyone gets their plate put on the table at the exact same time.

http://www.venetian.com/dining/menu_delmonicodinner.cfm

You really can't go wrong in the apps and soup/salad section. My personal favorites are the foie gras, the wilted spinach/fried mozzarella (basically the opposite of a salad), and tomato/onions/blue cheese plate.

For dinner the bone-in ribeye is definitely the way to go.

Every dessert I've tried has been great too.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I think this is probably a really important topic, because it speaks to so much of what is a restaurant dining experience. Whenever I read a restaurant review, I do a little (and obvious) comparison -- the tone of the review versus the final rating. I read the Washington Post because that's where I live, and often you'll see reviews that are pretty damn positive - and yet the restaurant gets maybe 1-star or 1.5-stars, or something.

At first, that seems off. The food was great, the service was great, and they get 1 star? And then you start to think about what the restaurant is, beyond the food. The kind of experience they aspire to give, what they actually give, and so on. Aspirations and intentions become really important.

If that was off topic, I didn't mean it to be. I think considering what a restaurant is trying to do, and what you want, is vital.

Personally, I love doing pre-fixe/tasting menus. This is the distinction for me when I go to a new place - me ordering a la carte is nice, but the chef saying "this is what I can do" is what can often make the meal a memorable ocassion. I hate paying $75/head for a boring but decent meal; I don't mind paying $200 if I'm going to be amazed.

Most of all, I want restaurants to push both what I know and what they can do.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

7ontheline,

[ QUOTE ]
I enjoyed Charlie Trotter's, although it was so hyped that when I went maybe I it couldn't quite meet expectations. That said, it was an excellent meal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my first trip to Trotter's suffered a little from the same problem. I also agree that the space lacks a certain amount of happiness and brightness. When I fineshed my meals at Trotter's, I was still a bit hungry, not much, just a little. I thought for the most part the service was absolutely amazing, the kitchen is great - and a fine example of Trotter's OCDish behavior. The problem I had with Trotter's was that there was almost never enough of anything. The idea of having many many bites of lots of stuff, each good, is great, but at this restaurant I kept finding myself wishing that there had been say, 6 bites of veal instead of 2 or 1. Everything was obvoiusly excellent, and everything tasted great (very few risks taken) but it lacked a certain amount of wow as compared to the price, notoriety, etc. I think I've got the menu from Trotter's somewhere, but I doubt I can find it =(

[ QUOTE ]
I preferred Tru though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wholeheartedly agree. Like you said, the food at Trotter's is light. The food at Tru is the opposite. If you were impressed by the kitchen at Trotter's, the kitchen at Tru will blow you away - probably 10 times as large, with a staging area the same size as Trotter's' kitchen. On my first visit I sat at the Chef's table, which is in back of the kitchen, and can seat up to I think 6. (Trotter's has a Kitchen table that seats up to 4 I believe.) There's more courses in the Kitchen, and everything is rich, and the portions tend not to be small. I found myself near struggling by the end, but that was was I think because we were taking full advantage of their offer to eat as much dessert as we wanted. I've got a copy of the menu from Tru in my office, and I'll probably write it up when I get a chance. I just think people should know that they're going to be in a bit of trouble for finishing their 12 course meal when the 3rd course rolls out and it's a pint of lobster rissoto.

I have to say that I disagree about Spiaggia, but I can understand, definitely. I think that Italian is probably the cuisine that it's hardest to "feel" the difference between medium-high-end and high-end. Once you've got good handmade pasta and fresh ingredients well prepared, the differences are definitely subtle when existent. If you were mostly unhappy with the price, I definitely suggest the cafe next door which is much less expensive, and excellent food.

I've been to alinea, was incredibly impressed, and will post a review later in the thread when I get time. I'll say now that it was almost definitely the best meal I've ever eaten.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

ok, I didn't realize that people ate their own individual appetizers/salads/desserts. how do you fit all that in your stomachs?!

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

"You didn't mention one of my favorite touches at this and some other high end restaurants, how everyone gets their plate put on the table at the exact same time."

this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.