Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Note: If you haven't already read, thought about, and hopefully posted about the pre-flop play, you should do so here before reading this thread.

Here is how the hand has played out in real life to our next decision point:

Setup

$10,000 Buy-In Event
Day 1
Blinds 75/150 and will go up to 100/200 on the next hand
Hero has been at the table for about an hour with no unusual play. All players are unknown except for Miami John to his direct left. The CO in this hand has been playing pretty tight.

Relevant Stacks

CO 25,000
Hero 11,500
MJ 13,000
BB 9,800

Pre-Flop
Everyone folds to the CO who limps for T150. Hero is on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and raises to T600. MJ calls in the SB for T600, the BB folds, and the CO calls for T600.

Flop
Pot: T1950

T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

MJ checks, CO checks. Action is on the hero.

Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)? Why?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Not a great flop but it probably didn't hit anyone else. We have overcards and two backdoor draws.
Maybe bet 1200 or so? Represent an overpair?

Lloyd, is the 500 post cutoff for submitting hands or commenting? If it's commenting I'm sorry.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Getting check raised here sucks since there are quite a few cards that come on the turn that help you out some. So i check behind. Maybe if MJ wasn't in the hand i'd try and take it.. but vs two guys i'm just checking here, hopeing to see an A,J,Q,8 or club on the turn.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, is the 500 post cutoff for submitting hands or commenting? If it's commenting I'm sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem at all. I placed an artificial limitation on submitting hands simply because I'd prefer to receive hands other than the ones we see here day in day out, and those who have been posting for awhile are in a better position to know what I'm looking for. It was simply a way to help filter through a bunch of hands that are probably fairly common.

Post away!

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I would check behind. You have plenty of outs and can make a play with position on the turn.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I can see your point on checking but we have control of the hand right now and we may be able to take the pot here. We may be able to knock out an overcard to our J as well.
If someone smoothcalls us then we may get a freecard if they check again to us on the turn.
We have to fold to a significant checkraise though.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

My hand isn't likely to improve on this board and the board is unlikely to have hit anyone very hard so I just make a standard continuation bet of 1000 hoping to represent an over pair like JJ/QQ or top pair top kicker and take it down. If I get check raised then I'm fine with folding because I'm probably behind anyway.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

because we have to fold a checkraise, and we very well may be ahead here, AND we have a good opponent in the BB, and maybe a trapping (thuogh less likely after just calling PF) CO.. i don't think betting here will win it often enough..

But cheecking lets you improve your hand.. like half the deck is going to improve your hand some, but you need to improve before you want t commit significantly more chips.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
My hand isn't likely to improve on this board and the board is unlikely to have hit anyone very hard so I just make a standard continuation bet of 1000 hoping to represent an over pair like JJ/QQ or top pair top kicker and take it down. If I get check raised then I'm fine with folding because I'm probably behind anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you yourself said this flop is uunlikely to have hit someone, so your opponents re going to to know this, and could very well raise you with air here. Being checck raised doesn't mean your hand is no good, but you can't play it out usually to see what happens.

you say your hand is unlikely to impvoe.. but more than half the deck gives you significant draws or TPTK.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I check behind. I don't like the cutoffs initial check. I'd rather keep the pot small and see what happens on the turn. I'm willing to give a free card here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I definitely check behind as I am smelling a middle pair that just got a set. I think im too paranoid. But in all seriousness a bet is very unlikely to take anyone away from their hand on this flop.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

It's a benign looking flop. If we are ahead then why not try to get it now instead of if something like a K comes on the turn?
And since so many cards improve our hand I'd like to keep control of the pot because otherwise say an offsuit Q comes and MJ bets the pot or close to it?
Betting here 1) may take it down now, 2) may get us a free card or at least slow down opponents on the turn.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My hand isn't likely to improve on this board and the board is unlikely to have hit anyone very hard so I just make a standard continuation bet of 1000 hoping to represent an over pair like JJ/QQ or top pair top kicker and take it down. If I get check raised then I'm fine with folding because I'm probably behind anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you yourself said this flop is uunlikely to have hit someone, so your opponents re going to to know this, and could very well raise you with air here. Being checck raised doesn't mean your hand is no good, but you can't play it out usually to see what happens.

you say your hand is unlikely to impvoe.. but more than half the deck gives you significant draws or TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it doesn't need to hit us if we have an overpair.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just make a standard continuation bet of 1000

[ QUOTE ]
could very well raise you with air here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, a 1K bet could be taken as weakness by two very solid players. As I posted earlier, just check and see another card.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Also, would the fact that we're betting into 2 callers make it seem like less of a continuation bet?
And the pot isn't small. It's already decent and worth taking.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

the fact that the pot isn't small just means you're going to have to risk more to win it, and it's not that good of chance that you take it down here... you get checkraised more often than they'll fold.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I'm happy to see that the original Hero took the same line I would have preflop...anyways

My original range for CO was [JJ-22,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AQo-A3o,KTo+,QJo,JTo]

After calling a preflop raise with MJ already calling in front of him, the range has not been narrowed at all since CO would have implied odds with any of his preflop holdings. However, with a F of T93 rainbow a Tight player would be willing to call/raise a strong F bet A LITTLE MORE THAN HALF THE TIME, whether with an overpair, a pair of some kind, draw, set, whatever. Now let's deal with MJ...

His range for calling the preflop raise I would put at [22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,AQo +]. That is slightly Tighter than CO's range because he has to worry more about domination with two other players in the hand as well as having the worst position. MJ would be willing to call/raise on a T93 rainbow F about 60% of the time. That doesn't include a stone cold bluff or a read bluff.

So with a player at 45% to fold and another at 40%, a continuation bet is ill-advised. Let's see a Turn. The only bet that can realistically fold out draws and overpairs and decent pairs is a Push, and there's no reason to do that in case someone has a set. There's a good chance a bet will be check-raised here and you have no idea where you stand. Free card please.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Whether I make a continuation bet here depends on my past history at this table. If I have been betting every flop that I raised preflop, I will pass here. If I am perceived as someone who only bets when they have a hand, then I will make the continuation bet.

If either the SB or the CO have a pair here, they may well check-raise my continuation bet to "test" me, at which point I have two choices, give up on the pot or reraise all-in representing an overpair. If I do this and they have made a set I'm done.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
you get checkraised more often than they'll fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I just want to note that another reason I would often check the flop here is that the turn card might give me a draw --- if it comes a club I have a club draw, if it comes an 8 or Q I have an open-ended str8 draw. So if I get an A,J,Q,8 or club on the turn, I can bet (or raise) there. A raise on the turn after a checked flop looks very much like a slow-played big pair or a made set.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I check behind on this street, I agree the pot is tempting, however I'm not sure a continuation bet's success rate is high enough in this spot with two people still in, one being MJ, and I hate a C/R here, which MJ is fully capable of doing with just about anything. Check behind and see what you pick up on the turn, then evaluate.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

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I agree, a 1K bet could be taken as weakness by two very solid players. As I posted earlier, just check and see another card.

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I don't worry about that so much, because I play a set, overpair or top kicker the same way. So if villain has seen me play a set, top pair,or an overpair before then he has to respect the bet, similarly if he hasn't and then sees me fold here then I'm more likely to get paid off later when I do hold a set or overpair or top kicker and I make the same bet.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Now that I've raised and gotten the predictable 2 callers, it's gonna take a lot better than this flop to get me to bet it.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Since the CO and blind call my raise, I can't see playing on with the hand. I would definitely check behind because they expect you to bet.

I don't like to play two crazily with two callers. I might make a play if I was up against one opponent. But, in this incidence you do have chips to play with and can survive at this point if you fold. It might sound tight-weak but you should be able to find better spots.

Stipe

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

well, there is 2K in the pot and 11K in my stack. I want this pot. The villains are certainly going to assume that this missed me (and of course it did), but that doesn't mean I am ready to give up. I'm betting out - 1200 is the right size. It is enough to show that I am serious about the hand while small enough to allow me the All-in bluff I'm planning on with FE over disagreeable hands like JQ. So my plan is to bet 1200, and then come over-the-top AI if raised to 3600 or less. This will be, naturally, after a considered pause in which I am carefully weighing my options and doing imaginary math in my head.

Why am I doing this? Because I believe I have FE over any pair. I am going home if they have T9, or trips, but that's ok. A board like this, an AI to shut out all draws is understandable and I think it is likely that they will put me on JJ-AA, or at worst AT.

CSC

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Well, I advocated a non-standard limp from the button originally. But, since we've already put in the raise:

I'm betting between 1,000-1,200 here. We have position, this board presents potential draws to our opponents. I'm not giving them any free cards here. If I get check-raised out of the pot, so be it, the turn card might've gotten us into more trouble than it was worth for all we know.

Agression, agression, agression. You look way too weak to not bet in that spot. If you held a strong hand (let's say you flopped a set) are you going to allow anyone to draw for free with 9/10 on that board? I certainly wouldn't.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Check.

The board is not too threatening, I may pick up a nice draw on the turn, and I really don't want to get c/r'd off my hand.

I highly doubt I win the hand with a cont-bet now that there is 3 players.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Check it

With this stack size, if your continuation bet gets anything but two folds, you are done with the hand. You have no room to manipulate if you get reraised. If called your only hope is to shell off half of your stack or give up the pot. Even if you get called and pair up, you now have built a big pot that you probably can't get away from with so few chips. This is troublesome.

If your hand had NO room for improvement then I might consider a 1500 chip continuation bet. But you have a 3 straight and 3 flush and two overs and position, so taking a card off can do wonders for you. If you turn a good draw you're in an excellent spot to semi bluff a bettor off of their hand. If a brick comes and someone bets much you can get away with relatively little invested. If you hit a pair you can play some poker in a relatively controlled pot.

All signs point to checking as the option that gives me the best chance to outplay the other two. Betting lets them pick me apart.

Everett

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I'm gonna go one step further: if you feel compelled to bet this flop because you raised PF and it's a nice pot now, etc., you were very, very wrong to raise.

The ONLY time I would bet here is if I was gonna take CSC's line and 3 bet the CR that is obviously coming, but if you are gonna play this for all your chips vs. that same limping CO, you're going to have to square that with the 'but he could be trapping' posts everyone just made in the last thread.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

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The ONLY time I would bet here is if I was gonna take CSC's line and 3 bet the CR that is obviously coming

[/ QUOTE ]
This is obviously deep stack poker and very different from the online tourneys we usually play. Can you explain what makes the hand up until now an obvious one to check-raise and by whom (MJ or CO)?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I was the preflop raiser. I agree with those saying to make a continuation bet of 1000-1200.

You've got position. They are solid players, but really with position and two checks I think I want to take control of this hand. A call is scary but I still have position on the turn and may very well get a free river card.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I check behind this flop. We have a ton of backdoor draws plus pair outs, and i don't want to get checkraised off my hand,

Unless the turn sequence goes bet,call or bet,raise, i am probably going to raise most turns.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

A call of your continuation bet is probably the best outcome because you get to see two cards for that price.... but it's also probably the least likely.
what's scare is when you're cheeckraised which is most likely. And then you have to let it go or go over the top like CSC said.

so, thats wwhy i like the cheeck, if you blank again, you can feel alright folding to a bet, if you improve then you have options.. if they bet youc an call, or semibluff raise..

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

This is how i see the hand playing out.

Option 1 - You bet 1200. (Standard Continuation)
I expect MJ to call with all top pairs and midpairs and depending on the hand of CO, wether he has hit his set or got an open ended draw or not, he is going to push or fold. Then on the turn, hopefully having a club, jack, or ace hit, when MJ checks to you you check behind him. Reason for this is that even if MJ has hit a monster such as a set you have that extra club to possibly come on the turn, or maybe even a chance to fill in a possible straight draw. ALso this hides your preflop raise and continuation bet and makes it seem like you raised with nothing and are scared of the flop. On the river I expect to check/call with any TP, and bet out my flushes/straights, twopairs etc.

Option 2 - Check behind him. Doing this you have to know that you are going to get action on the turn. MP will probably now bet out his TP or MP and CO will push or fold depending again on his sets, twopairs. If he hasnt hit his draw here i probably expect him to fold. If the turn is a pretty card such as a J, or a club i would call any bet for half/pot because implied odds and range of MP might be a bit loose.

Final Point - We are going to fold to any push from CO.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Let's start with MJ: he is an experienced pro that can apparently play a deep stack game. Given the PF action so far I can basically reliably put him on about...two cards. Between the chance of him trapping, the chance that he hit this flop (which has some draws, missed half the stuff I'd raise with, and hit all of the QT, middle Broadway type coldcalling hands) somehow, and the chance that he's planning to CR me with air, I think I get popped by MJ alone close to half the time.

Moving onto the CO the other half of the time, he limp/called, which narrows *his* hands down to maybe the top 80%. If he has anything more than 54s, he's ahead of me, and in addition, with a CR after MJ folds, he can represent a monster whether or not he has one.

Raising PF is a worse minefield than calling is. That's OK (Hero's in a 10K buyin; he ought to be able to handle that better than me, for instance), given you can navigate it. If you can't, though, the right play is almost always going to be the one that keeps the pot smaller until you have more info about how strong your hand is.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
So my plan is to bet 1200, and then come over-the-top AI if raised to 3600 or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done this. I've gone broke.

I'm taking the free card here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I admire your aggressiveness, but this is only the 3rd level. I think it's great and it shows me you are a thinking player because you already have a plan in place for a c/r.
I think it's way too early to push with air trying to muscle
a seasoned pro like MJ and/or a tight player like the CO. I happily take a free card in this spot. I don't want to potentially risk my tournament on Ace high. On the turn if I
improve my hand I am in a much better position to outplay the opposition.

Bruce

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I definitely check here. I don't see this board as especially non-threatening; lots of chances for someone to have a pair or straight draw here. The only reason to bet is to pick up the pot, which is unlikely to happen. On the other hand, you don't love this flop, but there are tons of turn cards that will help you.

You also have to be worried about the SB's potential holdings. I'm no pro, but where I come from, pros don't love to play raised 3-way pots out of position just out of boredom. He could very easily have something here.

I almost always make a continuation bet against a single opponent, but against 2 opponents, it's a judgment call. (I think Harrington says the same thing.) In this case, all the factors are very clearly in favor of taking the free card.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

I check. The board is coordinated and thus it's likely that one of the two players has a piece of it, I could easily get check raised and the free card has a decent bit of value.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop
 

Checking also sets you up nicely for the next street. If you get help, you can easily raise as a semibluff, and you will appear to be representing either a made hand or a strong hand like TTT or 999 that slowplayed the flop. Also, more importantly, if you raise the turn it's hard for anyone to raise you back unless they have a hand, because an obvious reason for you to take a free card on the flop is because you had a nice draw.

For example, say a J comes on the turn giving you top pair, but putting JT9 on the board. If someone bets and you raise, it's difficult for them to reraise you without a real hand, because KQ is a hand you easily could have played like this.

Note that if you check, it's important to have a plan for what happens when someone bets into you on the turn, because it's very likely to happen.