Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Pre-Flop
 

Welcome to our first "Hand With the Masters". Thanks again to jccookjr for suggesting this as a way to make the forum more valuable.

Here's how this is going to work (this time, I'm open for suggestions for our next hand):

1. I've sent the hand to our expert panel (who will be announced soon) decision point by decision point. So they only had access to the information that they would have had if they were playing the hand themselves. Obviously, this was an actual hand (contributed by Sossman) and when a panelist's line deviated from how the hand was played they still played the hand out as it actually went down. So if they said they would fold and in the actual hand it was raised, they played the next decision point as if they had raised.

2. I'm going to post the hand here step by step over the next couple of days. This will make it as real as possible. Additional decision points will be added to this post so you'll have to check back here every day (I plan on adding a decision point approximately every 24 hours).

3. Once everyone has had a chance to comment on all aspects of the hand, I'll post how our experts played it out along with the thought process they have presented. We'll then give them an opportunity to post and discuss why they liked one approach versus another.

4. We'll bring the forum back to continue the discussion. Essentially, this will be the hand we'll talk about over the next week.

So without further adieu:

Setup

$10,000 Buy-In Event
Day 1
Blinds 75/150 and will go up to 100/200 on the next hand
Hero has been at the table for about an hour with no unusual play. All players are unknown except for Miami John to his direct left. The CO in this hand has been playing pretty tight.

Relevant Stacks

CO 25,000
Hero 11,500
MJ 13,000
BB 9,800

Pre-Flop
Everyone folds to the CO who limps for T150. Hero is on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and ????????

Do you fold, call, or raise? If you raise, to what amount? What's your thought process behind your decision? What range of hands would you put the CO on at this point?

[b]The hand is continued here but make sure you read this post first, think about, and respond as to how you'd play so far.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

raise to 450.. CO could be trrapping, but i think most likely hero is ahead here... i put CO's range at [KK+,AKs,QJs,QJo,JTs,JTo,KJs,KJo,89s,9Ts, J9s, T8s, 57s, 56s, A5-A9o, A2-A9s]

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise to 450.. CO could be trrapping, but i think most likely hero is ahead here... i put CO's range at [KK+,AKs,QJs,QJo,JTs,JTo,KJs,KJo,89s,9Ts, J9s, T8s, 57s, 56s, A5-A9o, A2-A9s]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I would raise to around 550-650. My normal open raise on the button would be 400-450, but okay there is a limper. Raising to only 450 basically guarantees a call. I like to generally make raises that give my opponent a decision, instead of making poker easy for them. Raising to 550-650 should give the cutoff a difficult decision to make, whereas raising to 450 should convince the cutoff call the large majority of the time.

I think worrying about the cutoffs range is a bit much at this point. The stacks are so deep that he could have virtually anything. Even someone who seems tight may open limp with something like 74s from the cutoff seat with such deep stacks. Sometimes people start splashing around a bit more after the first hour anyway.

Calling preflop is OKAY and I'm sure I'd do it sometimes, but it's not my default play here. Everything is okay here from calling to raising less than I stated above or to making a larger raise. It's hard to go wrong, it's all a matter of style/image etc etc.

I'd say that folding or raising more than 1000 are where one can start to legitimately criticize the preflop play.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

Hero is on the button and should take advantage of his position, but the opener has a tighter range. Therefore I would be more tempted to flat call.

I would put villain on AA-55, AK/AT, Broadway suited connectors and speculative hands. Our range is a slight dog but our positional advantage makes up for it a little in that we can selectively "float" villain on board textures where it's called for.

Another thing to consider, however, is the effects of the flat call on the players in the blinds. Flat calling is going to encourage players like Miami John to come along or even reraise, whereas a preflop reraise will generally get it heads-up.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I call because

1) Our hand plays well multiway, so I don't see much of a need to push out the blinds.
2) Perhaps the most important fact is that our stack size is huge, so we don't need the blinds and won't be anywhere near committing ourself if we're behind.
3) CO limp is suspicious, so we could be behind--we'll certainly have to fold to a limp reraise.
4) The blinds know that CO limp is suspicious, so they likely won't raise with hands that are worse than ours and scare us out.
5) We have position, which will make this marginal hand much easier to play postflop.
6) The flop is coming AAJ, and CO has JJ.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

CO is either weak or trapping. It is very hard to put him on a narrow range without more information here, but he's most likely not on a big pocket pair. Small to medium pocket pair, suited connectors and one gappers, strong Aces slowplayed are all possible.

We don't want to let the blinds in for cheaps (free), and it's meaningful to gain information from CO, inclusive give him a chance to fold without looking too stupid.

Pot t375 when it reaches us. I suggest a raise to t650, reducing CO's pot odds to 2:1 (if none of the blinds join in). A raise of t500 is probably a little more than CO will call automatically, so if he calls he's most likely got a hand of some kind.

If he comes over the top (or if any of the blinds do) it's easy to let the hand go.

If he calls we must proceed with uttermost care. In this case the pot will hold t1,525, and a possible continuation bet will in no way pot commit us.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

i agree with curtains

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is on the button and should take advantage of his position, but the opener has a tighter range. Therefore I would be more tempted to flat call.

I would put villain on AA-55, AK/AT, Broadway suited connectors and speculative hands. Our range is a slight dog but our positional advantage makes up for it a little in that we can selectively "float" villain on board textures where it's called for.

Another thing to consider, however, is the effects of the flat call on the players in the blinds. Flat calling is going to encourage players like Miami John to come along or even reraise, whereas a preflop reraise will generally get it heads-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know CO just limped right?


edit: and i change what i said, a bigger raise is better... like 550 shouhld be good.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise to 450.. CO could be trrapping, but i think most likely hero is ahead here... i put CO's range at [KK+,AKs,QJs,QJo,JTs,JTo,KJs,KJo,89s,9Ts, J9s, T8s, 57s, 56s, A5-A9o, A2-A9s]

[/ QUOTE ]
Your dismissing all pairs under KK?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

whooooops. sry im tired.

raise to like 550ish.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]

Your dismissing all pairs under KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise to 450.. CO could be trrapping, but i think most likely hero is ahead here... i put CO's range at [KK+,AKs,QJs,QJo,JTs,JTo,KJs,KJo,89s,9Ts, J9s, T8s, 57s, 56s, A5-A9o, A2-A9s]

[/ QUOTE ]
Your dismissing all pairs under KK?

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought the other pairs wouldn't make as much sense... he'd probably raise with the other ones.

But yea i guess he very well could have lower pairs...but what i said i think affects the likelyhood of which hands he woudl have.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I would put it at [JJ-22,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AQo-A3o,KTo+,QJo,JTo]

Without a read it's very unlikely someone would limp AA-QQ from a late position; early position maybe.

A standard raise will probably be the consensus at this point. A good chance CO will fold.

I don't know MJ's game at all so I'll just assume they're thinking solid players.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

For those of you saying raise, what's so bad about taking a flop with stacks so deep? We've got 77BB and CO covers.

I think CO's most likely holding is a PP or suited connectors. With stacks this deep, we don't want to take the lead against these hands as this will make flop play very difficult--obviously, CO could set on basically any flop, and most flops contain a draw or two.

Factor in the fact that CO's read is tight (of course, I'd prefer a more specific read about CO's limping vs. raising habits) and could be trapping, and I think this is an easy call.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know MJ's game at all so I'll just assume they're thinking solid players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very good player. Well respected. If you google him you can see his history.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise to 450.. CO could be trrapping, but i think most likely hero is ahead here... i put CO's range at [KK+,AKs,QJs,QJo,JTs,JTo,KJs,KJo,89s,9Ts, J9s, T8s, 57s, 56s, A5-A9o, A2-A9s]

[/ QUOTE ]
Your dismissing all pairs under KK?

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought the other pairs wouldn't make as much sense... he'd probably raise with the other ones.

But yea i guess he very well could have lower pairs...but what i said i think affects the likelyhood of which hands he woudl have.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, I think his least likely holdings (other than the really obvious garbage) are TT-QQ. Agreed? I think his most likely holdings are 22-99 or so, but I can understand why people would disagree with this.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer a more specific read about CO's limping vs. raising habits) and could be trapping, and I think this is an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]
You've got all the info the submitter (Sossman) had at the time. So no real strong read other than what has been presented.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer a more specific read about CO's limping vs. raising habits) and could be trapping, and I think this is an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]
You've got all the info the submitter (Sossman) had at the time. So no real strong read other than what has been presented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Thanks, LLoyd, btw. Great idea.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I'd raise to 550. Just a touch more than a standard 450 reaise because of the limper.

The real question I guess I have is the reason why the SB's identity is important. Is he aggressive? Loose PF, tricky, tough, etc.

That may way on my decision more I think.

If MJ is capable of making a play do I want to be stuck in the middle of a squeeze between the tight CO and the trick SB.

Ok now I've done it. I've typed/talked my self into limping along just to see what MJ does.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Oh yeah and I think I remember this hand. It was from the WPT stars event??

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

With 5K, I would raise to 600-ish, but these stacks are very, very deep and I am leery of playing a big pot before I see a flop; among other things, I almost feel I have to call a reraise from the blinds, which is problematic in itself. On the other hand, my guess is CO will lead almost any flop that looks remotely bettable to him, many of which are going to be flops I dominate him on, and while the blinds may get frisky PF they will also raise many hands I dominate after two people show weakness. So, I limp/call a raise and feel pretty comfortable doing it.

Note that I'd raise stuff like AT and KQ here, however.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real question I guess I have is the reason why the SB's identity is important. Is he aggressive? Loose PF, tricky, tough, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe Miami John (Cernuto) has a reputation of being a maniac or anything like that. But he's a proven winner with 3 bracelets (Omaha, Stud, and NLHE so he's well rounded) among many other wins. He obviously has the ability to make any move at any time.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I push all-in to find out where I'm at in the hand

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I push all-in to find out where I'm at in the hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I just open for 450. With stacks this deep an opening raise is just about sending a message that you have a raising hand. An extra 100 or 200 raise just isn't going to keep anyone from playing their hand because it represents like 1% or less of their stack. By not raising more you keep the pot smaller and end up having to invest less chips when you bet on subsequent streets.

If I wasn't on the button or there were multiple limpers, I might raise more to try to limit the number of people seeing the pot and to try to buy the button but that isn't the case here.

I don't like limping here because villains won't take your subsequent bets as seriously, you don't give the blinds a chance to fold, and you gain no information as to the strength of someone elses hand if they choose to raise preflop.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push all-in to find out where I'm at in the hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's gotta be... i mean, the reason you push here is so you see all 5 cards.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I make it 600 to go.

With no read on the CO as a tricky player, I want to get some money in the pot, as I probably have > 50% equity vs his range. AJs, will play much better vs a single opponent. I am not overly worried about a trap, as I have position, and he has been tight so far.

Plan for the hand is to take a 2/3 pot stab at the flop if it is checked to me. If he calls, I am done unless I have TP or better.

If I pair the flop, and he calls, I check behind most turns, and call a reasonable river bet.

Basically, I want some money in the pot, but I dont want to make it so I will be forced to call off 1/2 of my chips or more with one pair. I want to win a small-medium sized pot here unless I get 2P or better.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

Hero calls t150.

If CO is as tight as we think, I could already be behind. However, with this hand, I want to see a flop, but it isn't god enough to risk too many chips at this point (because of the tightness of CO).

With CO just limping, I put his range of hands quite large, but better than average. Open-limping, especially from CO makes me wonder, but I am unconcerned with monsters, at least as of now. Probably AA-22, AKs-54s, AKo-98o. Pretty big range, but later streets should help be narrow villain's range by quite a bit.

That said, Hero calls t150.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise to 450.. CO could be trrapping, but i think most likely hero is ahead here... i put CO's range at [KK+,AKs,QJs,QJo,JTs,JTo,KJs,KJo,89s,9Ts, J9s, T8s, 57s, 56s, A5-A9o, A2-A9s]

[/ QUOTE ]
Your dismissing all pairs under KK?

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought the other pairs wouldn't make as much sense... he'd probably raise with the other ones.

But yea i guess he very well could have lower pairs...but what i said i think affects the likelyhood of which hands he woudl have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think him limping a big pair from that position would be unlikely (but not impossible). Honestly, a small pair seems like one of the more likely hands he could have, to me. Sure, many of us would raise, but many others routinely limp with them from any position, especially when the stacks are this deep.

I'd put him on 99-22, KQ-KT, maybe QJ-JT. I'd keep the possiblity of a trap with aa-qq in mind, but honestly those don't play all that differently from my suspected small pair hitting a set. My range seems to be narrower than other folks's, but I have a hard time imagining a player at this level limping with anything worse. A raise seems far more likely.

If he has a small pair, he might call a raise, even a modestly over-sized one, just for set value, because he has plenty of implied odds with these deep stacks. Of course, on the flop, you can often get him to lay down the better hand even if you miss. (E.g. villain has 66 on a K73 flop).

In the end, though, I agree with other posters as to the action. A raise to something like 3.75-4 BB seems best, followed by a continuation bet on almost any flop. I'd strongly consider folding even TPTK to a check-raise, though.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's gotta be... i mean, the reason you push here is so you see all 5 cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to take away a possible line, but there's no reason to push here period. t375 in the pot and t11,000 behind??? This is deep stack poker.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

Eek, i was being sarcastic..

no way i'm pushing here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eek, i was being sarcastic..

no way i'm pushing here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know. But this thread is probably going to be around for awhile and I don't want some newbie reading a sarcastic response and taking it seriously.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
CO is either weak or trapping. It is very hard to put him on a narrow range without more information here, but he's most likely not on a big pocket pair. Small to medium pocket pair, suited connectors and one gappers, strong Aces slowplayed are all possible.

We don't want to let the blinds in for cheaps (free), and it's meaningful to gain information from CO, inclusive give him a chance to fold without looking too stupid.

Pot t375 when it reaches us. I suggest a raise to t650, reducing CO's pot odds to 2:1 (if none of the blinds join in). A raise of t500 is probably a little more than CO will call automatically, so if he calls he's most likely got a hand of some kind.

If he comes over the top (or if any of the blinds do) it's easy to let the hand go.

If he calls we must proceed with uttermost care. In this case the pot will hold t1,525, and a possible continuation bet will in no way pot commit us.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like mcmelchior's line. I see some validity in limping, but if you do so you have 4 to the flop. I prefer taking the lead in the hand and bump it to 600. Too early to have a line on CO.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

Raise to 600 so I can hopefully get a little more information about what UTG has. Can't put him on a small range as I think he could be doing this with any two playable cards.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

never mind

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

For me, it's close between limping and raising. Ordinarily, I'd be inclined to raise and would take a line very similar to McMelchior's. However, in this particular instance, I'd limp in hopes of flopping a big hand because the CO's limp appears very suspicious to me.

Given the CO's relative stack size and tight table image, one would think that he would win the blinds a high percentage of the time if he had raised w/ any 2 from his position ... and he most probably knows this. His limp seems like he's looking for action and I think it's more likely that he has a premium holding than a speculative one. While I admit his range for limping from the CO could be very wide and at the risk of seeming like I'm looking for monsters under the bed, my "gut" tells me he likely has AA-QQ or possibly AKs -- I just think that lesser pairs/suited connectors would be happy to win the blinds given the likelihood of overcards on the flop.

While limping with AJs on the button and allowing for a 4-way pot might appear weak, the pot is so small relative to the stack sizes that I see no immediate need to stick my neck out here ... but it's close. If CO's stack size was roughly equivalent to mine or had a looser table image, I'd be more inclined to take McMelchior's line and raise here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

I'm still in auto-mode right now. I make a standard raise to 600. See what happens. In general, I'm throwing out 1K on the flop. See what happens. But I may not. Depends on my mode and whether or not my opponent has white socks.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 600 so I can hopefully get a little more information about what UTG has.

[/ QUOTE ] I'd really like to know what he mucked too, but unfortunately, I don't think raising is gonna tell us anything.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know MJ's game at all so I'll just assume they're thinking solid players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very good player. Well respected. If you google him you can see his history.

[/ QUOTE ]

This could mean alot of things, couldn't it? Daniel is a very good player and well respected, but his style is definitely different than Dan Harrington's who is also very good and well respected. From this perspective, MJ is Dan Harrington minus a few points of trickiness.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1
 

FWIW I have reading comprehension problems and despite looking at the details of the hand many times, I was under the impression that the cutoff had 11k chips and not 25k. This raises the frequency in which I will just call preflop.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #1 *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by 2005