Learning to fold...
 

I am limit player so these folds are extra hard for me. I know he can have a ton of draws here but every time I call here I get shown at least a set... Villain is about 15/11/4 but over a small sample. BTW when I was taking my time villain types "JJ?" into the chat box.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $383
CO: $245.95
Button: $196
Hero: $623.70
BB: $332.50

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $8</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $24</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($50, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $35</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $172</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $137 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $120

Re: Learning to fold...
 

this is a call...couple more bucks pre too

Re: Learning to fold...
 

i call

Re: Learning to fold...
 

For those saying call, what is the deciding factor? The fact that this is a blind battle?

Re: Learning to fold...
 

considering stack size this should be an insta call, i think it should be a call up until the point you are getting less than 1.5:1 on your money which would be the case if he had &gt; 225

Re: Learning to fold...
 

<font color="red"> [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]BAD FOLD [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] </font>

Re: Learning to fold...
 

I call, because he raised pre. You are beat by AA or a set, but i don`t think he pushes his set here!

Re: Learning to fold...
 

The question is...with this flop what is beating you? A set? unlikely but he could be scared of the spade flush draw. A 10, K 10 are more likely or high suited connectors but a shove with a flush draw is a bit goofy.
Personally I would have to call here out of curiosity.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those saying call, what is the deciding factor? The fact that this is a blind battle?

[/ QUOTE ]

we have kings

Re: Learning to fold...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don`t think he pushes his set here!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This is an easy call. He's overbetting the pot, representing a drawing hand. He's not playing it like a set. If he has AA, then you pay him off, reload, and try again. If he has an overpair under your kings, then you are a huge fav. You have a GREAT hand, just call and let the cards do the rest.

One last point. This is a 1/2 NL table, not a 5/10 NL table. Many of the players there are terrible, and love making big plays. Take advantage and make an easy call.

This is an EASY call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Learning to fold...
 

It's not a blind battle. I call here, and I think preflop is fine.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

This is SSNL btw.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

Raise more pre-flop. Insta-call.

As a limit player, you should understand the science of hand distribution range versus odds being layed. This isn't even a close fold.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don`t think he pushes his set here!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This is an easy call. He's overbetting the pot, representing a drawing hand. He's not playing it like a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of you are wrong. I think the standard line for a set here is to play it fast and get it in. Hero's hand is super transparent on that board. Hero's range is likely to be big pocket pairs/nut flush draws/air. If villain has a set and calls, so many turns can ruin his action vs the big PPs hero may have.

As far as the hand goes this is a standard call. If you lost, reload and that's that. Villain's range is wide enough on this shove to call. So even if this was a set, other times it'll be flush draws/underpairs/etc.

Edit - Forgot to mention, this is 100bb effective stacks and you have ~1/3 of your stack in a re-raised pot on a 10 high board with KK. Just get the rest in there.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of you are wrong. I think the standard line for a set here is to play it fast and get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we are not wrong here. Remember, this is 1/2 NL. Many of the players are donks, and more often then not, will slow play their sets until the turn. At higher stakes games, players play their sets faster, at the lower stakes, many players try to get "cute".

Also, look at the bet sizes. Why would some one with a set bet more than twice the pot? If he has a set he wants action, he doesn't want to push someone out of the pot. He wants callers that don't have the odds to draw. Betting the pot would be sufficient here.

this bet just smells like a drawing hand here, i.e. AK, AQ suited.

Regardless, I think we're all in agreement, the OP should "call" here. I'm interested to see what actually happened, and what the raiser turned over.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Both of you are wrong. I think the standard line for a set here is to play it fast and get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we are not wrong here. Remember, this is 1/2 NL. Many of the players are donks, and more often then not, will slow play their sets until the turn. At higher stakes games, players play their sets faster, at the lower stakes, many players try to get "cute".

Also, look at the bet sizes. Why would some one with a set bet more than twice the pot? If he has a set he wants action, he doesn't want to push someone out of the pot. He wants callers that don't have the odds to draw. Betting the pot would be sufficient here.

this bet just smells like a drawing hand here, i.e. AK, AQ suited.

Regardless, I think we're all in agreement, the OP should "call" here. I'm interested to see what actually happened, and what the raiser turned over.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of things. Players at 1/2 on average aren't nearly as bad as they used to be (6+ months ago). Disregarding that, people fast play here all the time because of the way you're thinking. "Why would he do this with a set? it has to be a draw. So I call!". Also a pot sized raise on the flop is committing your stack anyway so essentially it's exactly the same as a shove. Pot is $85 so you re-raise his 35 to 120? You've already got $24 invested preflop so you'd have $55 behind after you did this. No matter what your hand is it has to go in on any turn anyway presuming he calls.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

I play all my poker at $1/$2 at the moment and I disagree with most of the responses here I think this is a very close call. Raising more Pf is better so you can call more easily on the flop. I think players at $1/$2 arent brilliant and I also think if he has a draw here then he is making a good play. Most players at this level will not shove there draws on the flop from my experience but maybe this is just the way it is at my site but you see a set here most of the time. I don't think there is much EV difference between calling and folding and I would base my on what I know about the player.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

Easy call. I call with JJ as well, maybe less.
I disagree with those who say ppl play a set like this very often although they should.

Re: Learning to fold...
 

snap call, clinch fist, scream no spade and do a jamie gold dance

Re: Learning to fold...
 

ok, lets look at this another way, and do the math: You re-raised preflop, and he called an additional $16, which suggests he has a decent hand here.

most likely hands to call you preflop are: AK spades, maybe AQ spades, AA isn't as likely as he didn't reraise you again, but it's possible. QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88 and maybe 77. If he was really loose, maybe he called you with 98 spades.

Ok, so the flop comes, you bet, he pushes, and now what? well, he probably doesn't have 99, or 88. I'd say possible holdings are:

AA,QQ,JJ,TT,77,AK spades, AQ spades, 98 spades.

Again, I don't think AA is very likely as he didn't reraise you preflop, but you can't discount it, as he might have been trapping you.

You figure you're roughly an 11-1 fav over QQ and JJ at this point, and an 11-1 dog to AA, TT, 77, and roughly a 2-1 fav over the drawing hands. The pot is giving you 1.87 to one in this case. If you average all the possible holdings together, not including AA you are about a 2-1 fav here. If you include AA as a possible holding here, you are still about a 52% fav, about even money here.

Again, pot odds alone, compared to your chances of winning here dictate a call. In the long run a call here is the +EV play. Folding is negative. CALL!!!!