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My Casino AZ Problem....
As a relatively new player (2 years seriously), I have ran into a problem at Casino AZ. I moved up from 3/6 to 4/8 to 6/12 and now mainly play the 8/16 game there. I have played the 20/40 a handful of times.
That is my problem, there is a huge jump from 8/16 to 20/40. One bad day at 20/40 can wipe out a month of 8/16 profits (as I proved three weekends ago). I know they used to have a 10/20 game that folded because it was the nittiest game in the world. What is the likelihood that I could get say a 12/24 (yellow chip???) or a 15/30 game going there regularly. I know it would strain both the 8/16 and 20/40 games, as some of each would play in it, but at peak times, there are usually 3 of each 6/12 (lots of people playing while waiting for 8/16 seats), 8/16 and 20/40 games going. The 15/30 at Bellagio was a perfect fit for my skills and bankroll, but wouldn't mind a 12/24 game either. It might take me up to another year at 8/16 before I have the bankroll to play 20/40 all the time, a game between them would speed up the process for sure.... Thoughts? |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60).
PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
Well, my point which got murky, was...is it possible for me to start a 15/30 or 12/24 game there. I have never tried to start a different game, but know that a year ago they never used to have an 8/16 game, 6/12 was the biggest low limit game....so would they be interested in spreading a 12/24 game (don't know if they have enough yellow chips to do so) or a 15/30 game?
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Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
You think that you need 500BB to take a shot at the 20/40? I was planning on taking a couple shots at ~250BB (though, mostly to get my face recognized and not get shots taken at me constantly when I start playing it regularly).
-d |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
Get to know management.
Talk to other 8/16 players about your ideas. Present a proposal to management. All they can do is say "No". |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
Well, my point which got murky, was...is it possible for me to start a 15/30 or 12/24 game there. I have never tried to start a different game, but know that a year ago they never used to have an 8/16 game, 6/12 was the biggest low limit game....so would they be interested in spreading a 12/24 game (don't know if they have enough yellow chips to do so) or a 15/30 game? [/ QUOTE ] Forget about 12/24 or 15/30. The players that regularly play 6/12 or 8/18 wont make that step for the MOST part( at least not regularly, which is what you want). Your ONLY shot is converting the 8/16 players to 10/20. While in 8/16 game, start suggesting 10/20...get a live game to move limits. If you can get the players to agree, call the floor " the whole table would like to convert this game to 10/20". BUT... Play 10/20 with BLUE chips, do not color up to red. Once you get the game live a time or two, the game will develop on its own. <font color="blue"> Play with blue chips. Play with blue chips. </font> One of the reasons the old 10/20 died is that the quantity of chips in the pots were significantly less than the blue chips games. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
From what I heard and my own experience, the 10/20 game died out about the same time the 5-150 game started to get more traction.
Everyone has a different theory but the 10-20 game was also the biggest raked "jackpot/extra $1" game. In terms of trying to get a new game going, good luck. I've suggested several times to at least "take a list" for a 20-40 mix or even a 10-20 mix game but they won't spread a mix at less than 30-60. And at least for a 20-40 mix they don't need permission, new plaques, or anything! But they won't even take an interest list. Good luck. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
The 10/20 game died LONG before the introduction of the 5-150. The 10/20 game died at the McKellips location (four years ago i believe) 5-150 had nothing to do with it.
The rake on 10/20 was $1 out of SB for Jackpot... Flop and drop $2... Another $2 when the pot reached $100.00 ( Depending on the time of year, that second 2 either went to the house drop or was split with 1 going to the jackpot and 1 to the house) The reason the lower limit mix games dont go is lack of intrest. There are not enough 10/20 or 20/40 mix players to support the game for long...they all want to play Holdem. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
I used to think the exact same thing. I played 8/16 for years wishing there was a game I could move up to that was smaller than the 20 game.
I finally just grew some balls and took a 150BB shot and never looked back. I wish that I would have done this years ago now that I see how much I can make. I guess what made it easy was the fact that I did run very good for the first 100 or so hours. About 55/hour for the first 100 hours. I made my 20/40 bankroll by playing 20/40, which is not the best of plans but I got lucky. And now my bankroll is over 350BB, which I am very comfortable with. I don't like the idea of a 15/30 game because I don't want the 20 to dissapear like the 10/20 game did. The 20 game is the best game I have ever played in. I actually don't think it is much harder to beat than 8/16. I have to ask, are you 21-23 years old, wear an ASU had most of the time and seem to always be sitting in seat 5? The way you discribed yourself in a previous post this is who came to mind. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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I finally just grew some balls and took a 150BB shot and never looked back.... I guess what made it easy was the fact that I did run very good for the first 100 or so hours. [/ QUOTE ] Uh, yeah. Which is why your association of playing higher with "growing balls" makes you sound like a donkey. I love nothing more than playing against opponents eager to show their virility by making ill-considered bluffs and calls. Playing up with 150 BBet is probably fine, provided you can move back down if you start out bad. But when it's not a rational decision, rather a matter of "growing balls", then what are you going to say if you get a bad run of cards and have to play down? "I castrated myself and played within my bankroll"? What a stupid way to approach poker. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
You think that you need 500BB to take a shot at the 20/40? I was planning on taking a couple shots at ~250BB (though, mostly to get my face recognized and not get shots taken at me constantly when I start playing it regularly). -d [/ QUOTE ] In that game, yes you need 500 or so BB. Its a 1/2 kill game and its plays very wild, these games tend to be high variance. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
Playing up with 150 BBet is probably fine, provided you can move back down if you start out bad. But when it's not a rational decision, rather a matter of "growing balls", then what are you going to say if you get a bad run of cards and have to play down? "I castrated myself and played within my bankroll"? What a stupid way to approach poker. [/ QUOTE ] Its his money, his decision, his risk. Its not a wise decision, but he obviously ran good and made a bank for the game (its still not an ideal bank, but its good enough). Its not stupid, and personally I welcome the shot takers because they usually (not always of course) make the game better. I suggest everyone who is in this thread read Mason's fantastic book Gambling Theory and other Topics where the concept of bankroll theory was first discussed and applied, as well as the first understanding of a player's standard deviation for various game textures and types. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I finally just grew some balls and took a 150BB shot and never looked back.... I guess what made it easy was the fact that I did run very good for the first 100 or so hours. [/ QUOTE ] Uh, yeah. Which is why your association of playing higher with "growing balls" makes you sound like a donkey. I love nothing more than playing against opponents eager to show their virility by making ill-considered bluffs and calls. Playing up with 150 BBet is probably fine, provided you can move back down if you start out bad. But when it's not a rational decision, rather a matter of "growing balls", then what are you going to say if you get a bad run of cards and have to play down? "I castrated myself and played within my bankroll"? What a stupid way to approach poker. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not exactly sure why you think what I said is so dumb. Maybe I'm missunderstanding you or whatever. I set aside 300BB for 8/16 and took the rest to 20 to take a shot. I ran good and didn't need to move down. The growing balls part meant that I didn't know If I could beat the game or not so I "grew some balls" and took a shot. I don't play for a living so I am very comfortable with 300BB and I will still move down if I get to an uncomfortable level. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60). PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad. Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets. OP: I know exactly how you feel. I played 8/16 for what felt like forever, partially because the 20/40 game at this casino almost never went and I'm a wimp. However I think having a 15/30 between would not be good. From personal experience having games at close levels is not good at all. When I played 8/16 what would often happen on weekdays is that the 8/16 players would settle into a 4/8 game and the floor wouldn't want to break a 4/8 to start an 8/16 and the players wouldn't always want to get up from the 4/8. The result is that the game wouldn't even start many days and the result of that is the people like me that do not want to play lower than 8/16 don't waste their time going to the casino any more and then the game just plain never goes any more and the casino has a million 3/6 games and a couple 4/8 games. I could write another rant about having 3/6 and 4/8 in the same casino, but since I don't play 8/16 any more it doesn't matter that much. It might suck not being able to move up faster, but it will benefit you in the long run to have a consistent 8/16 or 20/40 game to play than a spotty 8/16, 15/30 and 20/40 that all leech off each other. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets. [/ QUOTE ] I agree, but of course this is givin you have the ability to move down and not chase losses. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
I'm saying that conflating what should be an entirely rational motivation with another motivation, "growing some balls" (proving your courage) is ultimately not in your best interest. If you think taking shots at bigger games is +EV, fine, and it sounds like in this case it worked out for you.
As I already said, the problem is when the same reasoning indicates that you should move back down. Does that mean that, having grown some testicles, you're now shrinking them? If you think this way, then you may have immense psychological barriers to playing at the stakes you need to play at given a certain bankroll. After all, moving down would mean you're a pussy, right? And in general, poker decisions borne out of a fear of being a pussy aren't good ones. In general anything that tempts you to make a -EV decision should be avoided -- including metaphors that wrongly accept playing higher stakes as a sign of virility. I liked that your post was factual -- I took a shot, I ran good -- so why detract from it by bragging about your courage when you really just took a reasonable gamble and got lucky? |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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[ QUOTE ] patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60). PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad. Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets. [/ QUOTE ] I assume you haven't played in this specific game at this casino before... its very juicy but its also very high variance. Your being blinded by the 20/40 limit, think of this game as a 30/60 limit game that sometimes goes down to 20/40 - because it often plays like this. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You think that you need 500BB to take a shot at the 20/40? I was planning on taking a couple shots at ~250BB (though, mostly to get my face recognized and not get shots taken at me constantly when I start playing it regularly). -d [/ QUOTE ] In that game, yes you need 500 or so BB. Its a 1/2 kill game and its plays very wild, these games tend to be high variance. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Doesn't taking a shot, by definition, not require a full bankroll? I think Hass has pretty much described exactly what taking a shot entails. As long as you set aside enough to drop back down with a solid bankroll nothing catastrophic can happen and there is a lot of upside. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You think that you need 500BB to take a shot at the 20/40? I was planning on taking a couple shots at ~250BB (though, mostly to get my face recognized and not get shots taken at me constantly when I start playing it regularly). -d [/ QUOTE ] In that game, yes you need 500 or so BB. Its a 1/2 kill game and its plays very wild, these games tend to be high variance. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Doesn't taking a shot, by definition, not require a full bankroll? I think Hass has pretty much described exactly what taking a shot entails. As long as you set aside enough to drop back down with a solid bankroll nothing catastrophic can happen and there is a lot of upside. [/ QUOTE ] Re-read the full thread. This has already been covered. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying that conflating what should be an entirely rational motivation with another motivation, "growing some balls" (proving your courage) is ultimately not in your best interest. If you think taking shots at bigger games is +EV, fine, and it sounds like in this case it worked out for you. As I already said, the problem is when the same reasoning indicates that you should move back down. Does that mean that, having grown some testicles, you're now shrinking them? If you think this way, then you may have immense psychological barriers to playing at the stakes you need to play at given a certain bankroll. After all, moving down would mean you're a pussy, right? And in general, poker decisions borne out of a fear of being a pussy aren't good ones. In general anything that tempts you to make a -EV decision should be avoided -- including metaphors that wrongly accept playing higher stakes as a sign of virility. I liked that your post was factual -- I took a shot, I ran good -- so why detract from it by bragging about your courage when you really just took a reasonable gamble and got lucky? [/ QUOTE ] Ok I see what you are saying now, I thought you were just being another "I have more post than you arrogant prick". I don't really think that moving down is "being a puss" but I see how it seems that way. I was just, more or less scared of not being good enough to play 20. After doing it I'm not scared of moving up so much anymore. I actually can't wait to have about 20-25k so I can take a few shots in the 40 game. At CAZ it seems there is quite a skill level difference between 20/40 and 40/80 that I don't think exsists from 8/16 to 20/40. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm saying that conflating what should be an entirely rational motivation with another motivation, "growing some balls" (proving your courage) is ultimately not in your best interest. If you think taking shots at bigger games is +EV, fine, and it sounds like in this case it worked out for you. As I already said, the problem is when the same reasoning indicates that you should move back down. Does that mean that, having grown some testicles, you're now shrinking them? If you think this way, then you may have immense psychological barriers to playing at the stakes you need to play at given a certain bankroll. After all, moving down would mean you're a pussy, right? And in general, poker decisions borne out of a fear of being a pussy aren't good ones. In general anything that tempts you to make a -EV decision should be avoided -- including metaphors that wrongly accept playing higher stakes as a sign of virility. I liked that your post was factual -- I took a shot, I ran good -- so why detract from it by bragging about your courage when you really just took a reasonable gamble and got lucky? [/ QUOTE ] Ok I see what you are saying now, I thought you were just being another "I have more post than you arrogant prick". I don't really think that moving down is "being a puss" but I see how it seems that way. I was just, more or less scared of not being good enough to play 20. After doing it I'm not scared of moving up so much anymore. I actually can't wait to have about 20-25k so I can take a few shots in the 40 game. At CAZ it seems there is quite a skill level difference between 20/40 and 40/80 that I don't think exsists from 8/16 to 20/40. [/ QUOTE ] The CAZ 40/80 plays like 5/10 on Party. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
Thanks for all the replies and ideas. I know for sure a game inbetween will definately strain the 8/16 and 20/40 games. Just tonight we only had one 8/16 game going between like 5pm and when i left at 10pm.
[ QUOTE ] I have to ask, are you 21-23 years old, wear an ASU had most of the time and seem to always be sitting in seat 5? The way you discribed yourself in a previous post this is who came to mind. [/ QUOTE ] Damn, you got me pegged exactly. I love the 5 seat, I am close enough to everyone to be able to talk and gain information. The only times I am not in the 5 is if it never opens up, or if it opens, but i have 2+ racks of chips and moving would be a huge pain, or if I need to be somewhere in relation to a specific person. But for the most part in the 8/16, that isn't an issue. So what did I say or do that led you to that, or did you just hear "Pope" get called into a game. Was it when I was in a 20/40 game with you? And if so, comments on my play are appreciated. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60). PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad. Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets. [/ QUOTE ] I assume you haven't played in this specific game at this casino before... its very juicy but its also very high variance. Your being blinded by the 20/40 limit, think of this game as a 30/60 limit game that sometimes goes down to 20/40 - because it often plays like this. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] TT -- When you played the CAZ game, was it a two-in-a-row kill rule? That structure prevents almost all long stretches of kill pots. I think a player executing a careful shot could do with less risk than you imagine. It is too often overlooked that the probability of certain size downswings decreases dramatically with increases in winrate. And the CAZ 20-40 can breed some very high true winrates. My hundreds of hours in the game don't make for a huge sample, and I've had a $2k downswing and some smaller ones, but I certainly wouldn't be particularly reluctant to take a shot at the CAZ game. --Nate |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
A few remarks:
You can absolutely forget about CAZ spreading 15-30 HE. They took the position from day 1 that they wouldn't do it, ever. For a while we had 15 stud and, for a short while, 15 0/8 but that's it. There was even a 20 mix for a short while but only the better multi-game players sat in it so it was a waste of time for everybody in it. The horrible 10-20 was killed off by the 8-16 not by the 5-150 ~2 years ago and I was very glad of it. A 2/4 chip game is always the worst game in the house unless it's the biggest game being spread. The poster who suggested having it played with blue $2 chips has the right idea but CAZ won't do it. The room is filled up most nights and they aren't going to fix what isn't broken and for that reason they won't do a 12/24 either, imo. Hass: When you say 'take a shot' I'd bet you meant to give it only a play or 3 to see how you did and drop back down if your results were bad or if you felt out-classed and that you were in above your head skill-wise (btw folks, he plays a pretty good game and doesn't lose his head). I think that taking these kind of 'shots' are worthwhile if a player has the discipline to drop back down right away if he knows he should. Also, the 40 game is very often a way better game than the 20. There has been an influx from out of the blue of decent new players in the 20 game and I look at the 40 and console myself that I'll be in it w/i a year. OP: As important as having a sufficient BR is if you dropped an entire month's 8-16 profit in a couple of plays in the 20 game you have to ask yourself if you're playing at a level sufficient to beat the game not whether or not your BR is big enough. TT: You're right that the game plays bigger than most 20's, thank goodness. To those who come out to CAZ to play it be prepared for what is often (not always) a slug-fest. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
I think the 20 games is tougher than the 40 game at c AZ as long as you can handle the swings in 40-80 game.
Bob |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
TT -- When you played the CAZ game, was it a two-in-a-row kill rule? That structure prevents almost all long stretches of kill pots. I think a player executing a careful shot could do with less risk than you imagine. It is too often overlooked that the probability of certain size downswings decreases dramatically with increases in winrate. And the CAZ 20-40 can breed some very high true winrates. My hundreds of hours in the game don't make for a huge sample, and I've had a $2k downswing and some smaller ones, but I certainly wouldn't be particularly reluctant to take a shot at the CAZ game. --Nate [/ QUOTE ] It is a leg up, followed by a kill. I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually). For a safe bankroll I honestly suggest 500BB. However you can survive with a significantly greater risk of ruin with something like 300BB - but its not the optimal choice for event the best players due to the inherent variance that should be expected in this game. Its also important to note that when the kill pots occur the local player tenancy is to protect his or her kill at all costs, making for some ridiculously huge pots and tremendous possibility for suckouts of course - which I love [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually). [/ QUOTE ] Hey TT, I know you've come to visit AZ, but I didn't think you lived here. Am I misinformed? Ray |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
Well, I guess I'll bring to life a dead thread, just cause I am bored at work.
As some people may know, I bit the bullet and stayed away from the 20/40 game from Feb until the beginning of June, focusing on building my bankroll (and confidence) at the 8/16 game. The first time I 'took a shot' at the 20/40 game, I was trying way too hard. I was being overly aggressive, and not letting the table come to me. I learned from that, and have been much more successful up there now. Of course some of it is running good, but rarely do I look around and pick out more than 2 people who are better than me, which means I should be a favorite in the game. I have been running so well, that Howard keeps hinting at me to take a shot at the 40/80 game, but not yet. I am glad I kept at the 8/16 game instead of trying to force a new game on the location. It has also made me feel better about my game, being able to win at the 20/40. Again, sorry to bring up a dead thread, kinda bored at work. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually). [/ QUOTE ] Hey TT, I know you've come to visit AZ, but I didn't think you lived here. Am I misinformed? Ray [/ QUOTE ] I have a house in Phoenix (I don't own it) because I am a publisher of a magazine that is based there. I try to go every month, I am not that sucessful with my plans however. This is the first time I saw that question, thanks to Ray for reviving it! |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
Since when is reviving a thread when someone posted a question to you in it 5 months ago, not me posting something boring from work less than an hour ago?
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Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Hey TT, I know you've come to visit AZ, but I didn't think you lived here. Am I misinformed? Ray [/ QUOTE ] I have a house in Phoenix (I don't own it) because I am a publisher of a magazine that is based there. I try to go every month, I am not that sucessful with my plans however. This is the first time I saw that question, thanks to Ray for reviving it! [/ QUOTE ] Does this mean you've played razz with the inimitable Jamie Brooks down there on occasion? |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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Since when is reviving a thread when someone posted a question to you in it 5 months ago, not me posting something boring from work less than an hour ago? [/ QUOTE ] same difference pope, semantics. |
Re: My Casino AZ Problem....
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Does this mean you've played razz with the inimitable Jamie Brooks down there on occasion? [/ QUOTE ] They don't spread straight razz in CAZ, I play in the Hold'em games when it town because they are ridiculously good - so juicy it doesn't pay as well to look elsewhere. |
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