Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

This one could be standard but has a few interesting things. I just met Tony for the first time so he knows who I am. BK just sat to my left to isolate the fish (me). Immediately thereafter, Jayrockets sits to BK's left to isolate the fish (BK). We play a few hands when Tony sees the game and decides it is just too good to pass up and plans to stay there to eat dinner while waiting for a bigger game. he sits to my right. I game select good.

Very fist hand, Tony posts in the CO. Folded to a loose bad player who I thought raised but really just limped. Tony says "raise" but has no chips so I think it is 3 bet. I take it to 4 bets with TT but then suffer the humiliation of having to pull back 4 chips since I can only 3 bet. Anyway, bad player calls and Tony caps. 3 to the flop.

KQx rainbow. I dont recall the suits or the x but it doesn't matter.

Tony bets, I call, fish folds.

Turn J (KQx)

Tony checks. Action?

If I bet and get checkraised can I fold the river UI?

If I check and he checks the river, are we going to valuetown?

If I check and he bets the river are we calling?

If he checks and I bet the river and he checkraises are we calling?

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

Very interesting hand to me as this seems to come up often in my game. I check the turn for the free card and probably end up calling or checking behind the river unimproved.

This is a hand I play passively because I have outs to a big and and some showdown value.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

I agree, you want to showdown this hand cheaply after flop. Tough to think youre going to get any more value from a worse hand

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

Check the turn. If he bets the river and you're UI take a quarter out of your pocket, flip it, and ask him to call it in the air. Decide what that means beforehand. He's playing smaller than his normal games and is there to have fun and he knows that you want to showdown your hand so he shouldn't bluff, but he knows that you know that so he will bluff...and...

You see where I'm going. He plays good. Unless he's there to play bad, in which case I'd call if the coin comes up heads and I wouldn't fold if the coin comes up tails.

Rob

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

This feels a lot like AJs or another TT, something on that order. It could also be say 88 that figures the J filled in all your draws and is just ready to give it up. I think he probably gives you credit for a somewhat stronger hand than you actually have because that's a little bit of a loose peel with TT with a player still to act behind you.

Anyway, I'd bet as sort of a valuebluff and fire again on the river, expecting to get called down by something like AQ a lot but occasionally folding the AJs/TT type hand with the second barrel. There really aren't too many hands that should be check-raising here except perhaps the nut straight, since even KK minds getting free carded with the straight draw on the board. And I suspect that people are a little less likely to check-raise bluff when they don't have their chips in front of them. So I think this is a defensive check and I'd see if I couldn't exploit that. Plus, even if he does have say 88 it's worth something to fold a 2-outer, as I think that hand probably has to check-fold the river even if you pass on a turn bet.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

Am I the only one who just mucks the flop here?

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

Check. If these guys are spraying then play defensively and use them to get HU in multiway pots.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who just mucks the flop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty situational thing but I was pretty sure that was the worst of the 3 options. The fact that he is playing much lower than his usual stakes and there are 4 of us at the table changes things dramatically. He saw me try to cap preflop amd then he does cap. There is just way to high a likelihood that he is effing around with 78s or some sh!t to consider folding. I was very seriously considering not even looking at the flop and just calling down but I thought that would suck if I flopped a set and missed like 15 bets.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

There's a K,Q & J out, he capped it and you have two T's. Oh well. If there's a chance he's capping 88-99, what other option is there besides ch behind and call?

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

Two reasons to check the turn:

1. Classic "check w/outs" if you are behind.
2. Simple Defense check to get to showdown cheap.

No, you are not folding, he has 99 or A9s, or 87s since he's at 10% of his normal limit.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

[ QUOTE ]
This feels a lot like AJs or another TT, something on that order. It could also be say 88 that figures the J filled in all your draws and is just ready to give it up. I think he probably gives you credit for a somewhat stronger hand than you actually have because that's a little bit of a loose peel with TT with a player still to act behind you.

Anyway, I'd bet as sort of a valuebluff and fire again on the river, expecting to get called down by something like AQ a lot but occasionally folding the AJs/TT type hand with the second barrel. There really aren't too many hands that should be check-raising here except perhaps the nut straight, since even KK minds getting free carded with the straight draw on the board. And I suspect that people are a little less likely to check-raise bluff when they don't have their chips in front of them. So I think this is a defensive check and I'd see if I couldn't exploit that. Plus, even if he does have say 88 it's worth something to fold a 2-outer, as I think that hand probably has to check-fold the river even if you pass on a turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am with you for most of this but I think you underestimate the frequency with which he checkraises this turn and bets the river with a worse hand. I also don't think getting a 2 outer to fold is very important at all.

A big part of this hand is based on my read that he wanted to play the hand as tricky as he possibly could and that my getting his AQ/AJ to fold by firing the turn and the river was going to happen close to never.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am with you for most of this but I think you underestimate the frequency with which he checkraises this turn and bets the river with a worse hand. I also don't think getting a 2 outer to fold is very important at all.

A big part of this hand is based on my read that he wanted to play the hand as tricky as he possibly could and that my getting his AQ/AJ to fold by firing the turn and the river was going to happen close to never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making a big deal out of playing a pot with a high limit player.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am with you for most of this but I think you underestimate the frequency with which he checkraises this turn and bets the river with a worse hand. I also don't think getting a 2 outer to fold is very important at all.

A big part of this hand is based on my read that he wanted to play the hand as tricky as he possibly could and that my getting his AQ/AJ to fold by firing the turn and the river was going to happen close to never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making a big deal out of playing a pot with a high limit player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering surfdoc has played up to 200/400; you once again have made a foolish post.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am with you for most of this but I think you underestimate the frequency with which he checkraises this turn and bets the river with a worse hand. I also don't think getting a 2 outer to fold is very important at all.

A big part of this hand is based on my read that he wanted to play the hand as tricky as he possibly could and that my getting his AQ/AJ to fold by firing the turn and the river was going to happen close to never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making a big deal out of playing a pot with a high limit player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is a pretty important part of the hand. Many of us still have things to learn and adjusting to a player who is playing much lower than his usual stakes is an important concept. I realize that a guy like you with such a deep understanding of the game already has this nailed down but there are plenty of lurkers and posters who haven't played at stakes where a very tough and skilled player came and joined them.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

I think this is a super-easy turn check. easy river check unimproved as well. do you really expect to be called by worse on this board? Seems very unlikely.

If he bets into you on the river, then you have a decision. Getting, what, 7:1 though, it's pretty close. Somebody playing far below his normal limit will show you some random cards at times.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

I'm sorry surf. I don't even remember posting that. I was over served last night for the first time since I can't remember and made the same old mistake of deciding to post on this forum when drunk. I sincerely apologize.

Re: Commerce 40 vs. Tongni
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry surf. I don't even remember posting that. I was over served last night for the first time since I can't remember and made the same old mistake of deciding to post on this forum when drunk. I sincerely apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now worries man. I remember you going apeshit once before on the forum kinda out of nowhere so I assumed it was just another random thing where some button got pushed. I have pretty thick skin. Some people get angry and violent when they drink. I am not saying for sure that you are one of those people or judging you in any way but if that is the case you may want to look into getting some help.

Result
 

I checked the turn. The river bricked. I was going to beat him into the pot if he bet but he checked. I checked behind but really wonder if there is value in a bet to get paid off by the hand he had (77) or to get bluffraised and possibly earn two bets. Folding was not an option.

Re: Result
 

Everyone needs to realize Tony could have 72o here. Still I check here but value bet the river.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Result
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone needs to realize Tony could have 72o here. Still I check here but value bet the river.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

The river isn't a value bet. It's a bet to induce a bluff checkraise. And even then I don't think it has more value than checking behind (that is so say, I think bet-folding has a higher negative expectation than bet-calling but checking behind is ahead of both with an expectation of 0).

Rob