600/1200 river
 

6 handed live game, I was running super [censored] but then the last hour or two running really well.

I raise from the button with AQo. Neverwin calls in the SB, and Jimmy (jgorham or whatever his 2p2 name is) calls in the BB.

Flop AQ5r.

Check check, I bet, NW calls, Jimmy folds.

Turn Ks, second spade. NW bets, I raise, NW 3-bets, I call, but not instantly.

River 3s. Neverwin checks. I...? (edit: neither of my cards were spades)


History: about 8 hours ago in 4/8 we played a hand where I raised utg with 66, there were a few cold calls, and he called in the BB with 54. Flop was 632 two diamonds and he bet, I called, first cold caller raised, and we both called. Turn 2 and checked to the cold caller who bet, NW raised, I called, better fold. River 9 and NW check called.

Another hand about 6 hrs earlier. I raised UTG, 4 people cold called and NW called in the BB. Flop A93 and NW bet, I folded, first cold caller raised, NW 3-bet, and guy called. Turn 9 NW bet, guy calls. River 2 NW bets, guy calls, NW flips over 22.


Anyway, NW is playing pretty tough and solid today with occasional moments of erratic play, but nothing too bad and it's obvious he's playing a fairly tough game.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

it's correct to check i think, but i dont know if i can.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

u win!!!


PS: gabes sucks

Re: 600/1200 river
 

At first I thought this was a really tough hand, but now it seems like an easy check. I'm gonna keep waffling back and forth, but ultimately I think I'll land on check.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
u win!!!


PS: gabes sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep talking [censored], you think i won't post those pics?

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Yeah i am thinking the check is easier the more i think about it.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Additional info which may or may not hold relevence (but for me, made me put him on a slightly larger range of hands):

NW is on vicodin + weed + alcohol, and has went through high hell to get to play in this game (long argument and was given a 7 day suspension from the commerce which was shortened to 1 day and then 3 hrs later he came back down to the poker room and a different floor was on and the floor let him play after NW explaned what happened).

Re: 600/1200 river
 

I just dont think good players will 3 bet an ace or KQ and then check that river. Also, his preflop CC and flop c/c seem to be more in line with TJ than other holdings like AQ or Ax.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

i dont see how he doesnt bet JT on the river...
A5 and KQ arent possible? would he three bet pflop from the sb?

in the heat of the moment i would probably bet... but maybe check is better

Re: 600/1200 river
 

c/r a straight on the river would make a lot more sense than trying to c/r A5 or KQ here on the river. And i dont think he would 3 bet those and then c/c.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

agreed, random 2 pair is the most likely hand given the play (KQ most likely). He has to bet JT or a set on the river since it is unlikely you will be a one pair hand and it is unlikely you have air based on the play.

AK is probably the only hand you are behind (and that's only if he is tricky enough to just call preflop-- i love to cold call AK OOP but most of y'all usually rip me for it.)

Re: 600/1200 river
 

he obviously has something like K9 so it doesn't really matter what you do

Re: 600/1200 river
 

I am surprised that he checkcalled the river with 54 when you had 66. Your play on the earlier streets should not have had him thinking "yikes, that bastard schnieds has a boat"

Anyway, that history is relevant to your AQ hand and it makes a bet from you more appealing as it's unlikley that he is planning on checkraising you with JT (this is particularly so if the Ace on the flop was not a spade as he then has to consider the possibility that you put in 3 bets on the turn on the strength of an ace/two pairs with a nut flush draw. This is so even though you did not call his turn 3 bet instantly as the rest of us schmucks tend to do when we have a flush draw)

At the end of the day, leaving aside all mental gymnastics (which only you can properly assess as you were there), a check on the end here means that he doesn't like his hand. If he had JT, I think he bets. If he had AK, I think he bets.

He didn't bet. So, you should.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]



NW is on vicodin + weed + alcohol

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes it a clear bet. If Neverwin was on a combo of ecstasy and 'shrooms, then you should check behind.

What was the nature of the argument that got Dustin "suspended for 7 days?" Lol.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

I think its a bet. If he bet into you on the river, you're calling, I don't think he's risking it being checked through with JT or AK. I think he has KQ and realized he's behind.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Seems simple on first glance but now I think its a tough spot for sure. I would have bet quickly but now I think I'm getting checkraised or he's folding often. Not much to add I guess but interesting spot.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems simple on first glance but now I think its a tough spot for sure. I would have bet quickly but now I think I'm getting checkraised or he's folding often. Not much to add I guess but interesting spot.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]


ya that was my original impression... i think i would bet without much hesitation and he would either muck (not sure what though...) relatively quickly or raise me and i would puke

so is check better? or would he 3 bet/check a worse 2 pair? seems hard to grasp that play

thats why check seems better

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u win!!!


PS: gabes sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep talking [censored], you think i won't post those pics?

[/ QUOTE ]

DUDE!!! u swore!!! Dont even go there!!! You know I have stuff on you too!!! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: 600/1200 river
 

PS:

hes got KT or Kx, man up and bet....you win


I win??

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Just wanted to amend my first comment. I would have bet, as I said before, but after thinking about the hand a while longer I think a check is in order.

What can he call you with on this river? The hands you'd want to call your river bet bet out, weaker ones are check folding, and if you're beat you're getting check raised.

Change my vote to check.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

"I raised utg with 66, there were a few cold calls"

"I raised UTG, 4 people cold called"

is this normal and good play or did these guys suck?

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Lol Victor you still think high stakes games are filled with the best players in the world? These guys are there to gambooool.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have bet quickly but now I think I'm getting checkraised or he's folding often.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think that neverwin would try to checkraise with a monster in that spot? I think that scheids play is to bet, since I would guess that from neverwins perspective there is more value in betting right away than in trying to go for a checkraise with a better hand.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

wtf was nw thinking in the 22 hand? flop looks drawless (not sure of the suits) and it looks like the guy will almost surely call down. looks bad.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Is it fair to assume that you cannot fold to a CR?

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it fair to assume that you cannot fold to a CR?

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my main fear with betting

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Personally I would bet/call in this situation.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

I have not played with NW so I do not have a read on him. If he is the type to particularly like river check rasies (not just does them when appropriate, read: occasionally) then perhaps a check is good.

Without such a read, I really think this is a bet. I think a worse hand is most likely here and the turn three bet was to maybe get you to fold an ace you were FSD'ing. Then when the spade gets there he really has to worry you got there with a pair and spade draw so he is check calling (since you are tricky and he doesnt feel comfortable bet folding river).

By no means do I think this is not close. His two pair hands are questionable matches with his preflop play (3 bet KQ or A5s right? and I do not know if he is they type to come in with K5s, Q5s type stuff). So, if I had played with him a little I think the read could easily change this to a check. But, generally speaking, I think a bet is best.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

"I just dont think good players will 3 bet an ace or KQ and then check that river."

I'm not really in the 600-1200 good player category, but this seems like a fine line to take with these hands if the plan is to checkfold the river.

-Michael

Re: 600/1200 river
 

It should be a bet. He should not be check-calling a better hand, although Neverwin can be quite a bit too passive.

He could be c-rzing but I think it's worth the risk.

Also I think given some of the craziness you described and the fact that you were a button raiser, his turn 3-bet doesn't have to mean set or straight. Could be some bdoor flush draw + pair but I don't see him c-rzing the river then.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

results anyone?

Re: 600/1200 river
 

excuse me LHE retardedness, but isn't NW's susceptibility to do spaztarded stuff justification enough to bet/call this river?

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
excuse me LHE retardedness, but isn't NW's susceptibility to do spaztarded stuff justification enough to bet/call this river?

[/ QUOTE ]
i 2nd this
is he really prone to 3bet the turn and than c/r the river playing live?(with jt)

I would bet/call as i can't imagine checking this behind. I would save checking behind for all the AJ and AT hands i misplay the turn with

Re: 600/1200 river
 

I have trouble comparing the likelihood of him checking to raise to checking to call (with a worse hand) since both lines are unusual, and both legitimate for NW. So I would probably just put him on a range of (legit) hands and disregard the fact that he checked on the river and make the play that compares best against his hand range.

Even if we put K5s in his range, your equity is really low since there aren't many hands that make sense. After his bet 3bet I give him JTs, A5s, 55, and possibly K5s. And your equity is at about 25%. I don't think the check on the end really changes that hand range since he could check with any of those hands, so I check behind.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

The fact that so many people are agonizing over whether to bet here is exactly why you should bet. Think of it from Neverwin's perspective. You haven't exactly telecast that your hand is as strong as it is here. You open raised on the button, continuation bet the flop, peeled, and then raised the turn and called a 3-bet. He has to assume that if he bets the river you will call nearly always. So for him to conclude that going for a checkraise on the river is superior to just betting, he would have to think you will bet/call at least half of the time or bluff a fair amount of hands that wouldn't have called had he bet. Neither of these is very plausible which tells me you are very likely to have the best hand here. Likely enough to merit a value bet in my opinion.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Ive never played Neverwin...but there are very few people who I wouldnt Bet/Call this river against with the given action.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

[ QUOTE ]
excuse me LHE retardedness, but isn't NW's susceptibility to do spaztarded stuff justification enough to bet/call this river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 600/1200 river
 

Why would anyone in his situation checkraise the river with a better hand?

I think you have one of the worst hands that he would expect you to value bet the river with if checked to that you could conceivably have, and even with that you are considering checking behind. Anything better on the turn, and it's going 4 bets earlier.

I'd expect him to have some one pair type hands like Kx or Ax, checking with the intent to fold and occasionally calling out of desparation.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

i dunno abou nw, but this is exactly what i would do with JT vs schneids here.

Re: 600/1200 river
 

depends how he sees you, you are aggressive so he could easily be trapping you with a made hand. I think betting has a little more equity than checking, efinitely an interesting hand