10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Game wound down from 9 handed to 3 handed; playing 3-handed for only a few orbits. Effective stacks ~$6000

Hero raises to $80 on the button with 67 spades
SB calls, BB calls

Flop ($240) Js 4s 5c
SB checks, BB bets $160, Hero raises to $400 total
SB folds, BB calls

Turn ($1040) 8h (Js 4s 5c)
BB checks, Hero bets $740, BB almost times out and calls

River ($2520) 2s (8h Js 4s 5c)
BB checks, Hero bets $1500, BB shoves for ~$3300 more

Hero's play?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Why did you raise so small on the flop? You want to build a big pot in case you hit, and get him out of the hand so you dont have to it, I don't understand that part. Learn to manipulate pot size.

As played I puke and call. But this is online not live, and they always have the nuts online.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

any reads on villian?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

you honestly only beat a real elaborate bluff and you're getting like 3 to 1 on a call...he cant possibly expect you to fold anything decent

i hate it but i probably fold unless you have some info you're not telling me...

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

at first when i seen it i was like gotta call,but u have no lower flushes beat other than 53s.if i ever seen an agruement for foldin a flush it would be here. but it is 3 handed and people get aggressive 3 handed so nope.i make crying call

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

but he check called 2 streets...wtf do you put him on? complete air?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Looks a pretty simple fold to me. What do you expect him to show you here?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Yep, seems like a simple fold.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

AsJx

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

call

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Would you call with two-pair as well? Because I can't see how you're beating anything other than a bluff. I doubt the guy is valuebetting any lower than a flush, and as pointed out the only lower flush is 5s3s.

I'd expect to see a higher flush at least 80% of the time here.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Puke - Fold

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

raise more on flop, fold river [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks a pretty simple fold to me. What do you expect him to show you here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree considering the line we took. hero's line reps hands much weaker than what hero's holding on the river and i can see villain turning a lot of hands we beat into a bluff considering stack sizes. i can also see villain pushing a flopped set for value here against AA-QQ, which is what it looks like hero has.

with the price we're getting i don't see how you can fold. plus, villain's line looks more like a flopped set/2 pair than a fd.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

This doesn't look like a flopped set at all. He waits for the flush draw to hit before value checkraising his set?

Hero has played well and is not representing AA-QQ. He is representing a wide range from air to thin value bets to straight to flushes. Without knowing something significant about the history, it would be terrible for villain to valuepush this river with a set as he will rarely be called by worse.

Villain turning a made hand into a bluff is alot more likely than valuepushing a non-flush hand, IMO. However i'd have to know alot more about villain to make this call - I would definitely recommend a fold against your average opponent.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks a pretty simple fold to me. What do you expect him to show you here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree considering the line we took. hero's line reps hands much weaker than what hero's holding on the river and i can see villain turning a lot of hands we beat into a bluff considering stack sizes. i can also see villain pushing a flopped set for value here against AA-QQ, which is what it looks like hero has.

with the price we're getting i don't see how you can fold. plus, villain's line looks more like a flopped set/2 pair than a fd.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no way villain slow plays a flopped set on this board this deep all the way to the river and then raises when the flush gets there

that would probably be the worst set line i've ever seen

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

I find it alot less likely that he has the flush considering he almost timed out on the turn and more likely than usual that he's bluffing on the river since it was an instant allin.
Call.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

I should have said something more about table images/ history so here you go...

I sat down with this villain when 9-handed and have played with him for about 5 hours or so. I played super TAG when 7-9 handed, but got extremely agressive when it got down to 4-6 handed (incidentally where I made most of my $$). He's seen me make 2 big bluffs on the river when checked to me on very drawy boards; I would bet ~2/3 of the pot (as I did in this hand) and induce folds while showing something like top pair or a small overpair (i.e. 1010/JJ).

My point here is that he's seen me make these bluffs against other players taking the same type of line as I do here. My first inclination was that he thought I was full of it, but if he did what's the point in c/r unless he thought I'd call with an overpair or TPTK and he was c/r for value somehow? Wouldn't he just call here if he had a set or some kind of 2 pair (45o maybe)?

I think my hand is way way underrepresented here, and I think that his range includes JJ AND 88; i think a turned set is possible.

In his mind, he sees me as being extremely aggro and even bluff-happy at times, so it makes him slowplaying a set this strange way possible, as he knows I will pretty much keep betting when in position.

With this info, is anyone changing their mind?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

is this live. if so where? this may affect opinions.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

No, this is online

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

yea that changes things a lot.

i dunno, it's close. no time to analyze at the moment though

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

I don't understand why you bet the river without a plan. As played, I think you have to make the crying call.

FWIW, I probably check behind on river. Like others have said, what do you think he's check-calling 2 streets with?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

OMFG checking the river is the most terrible thing i've ever heard.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMFG checking the river is the most terrible thing i've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay so how much would you bet, and would you fold to a push?

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

His bet is fine and I'd probably fold to the push but it's close and really hard to say without being there, seeing history, etc. all of his posts definitely push it closer to a call. Without any read, I think it's a pretty easy (but pukey) fold.

Re: 10/20 Flush on turn 300BB Deep
 

Well I did have a plan on the river...I just wanted to see if it was viable or not. The reasoning I posted a few posts ago led me to snap call his all in there. The way the game was flowing, esp. after getting shorthanded, gave me a pretty crazy LAG image, and I think my showed bluffs in previous hands induced his push there.

He ended up having 67o and turned the straight...he played this horribly in my opinion and probably everyone else's...I would have expected a turn raise here, but like I said, I'm sure he was confident that I would keep on betting...