Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Some friends and I just started an NL Ring game and had our first game this weekend. We played .10/.25 $25 maximum buyin. This was the first time playing in such a game for some of the players including me and the host. I dipped a few dollars in the beginning and asked to rebuy enough to top off my stack to the $25 max. That started a whole big discussion on when to allow rebuying or "topping off." One guy was arguing that you shouldn't be able to rebuy until you bust out. I had to struggle a bit to get it to where you could rebuy if your stack got as low as $15 or lower.

What's the usual way to handle this? I would rather not play shortstacked. I could see how it could slow the game down a lot if someone was looking to buy more chips every hand however.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

At my home cash game we allow you to rebuy when you go broke.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

It may be +EV to let this one go for a while, as they seem like donks. Don't give them the impression right from the start that you're there to take their money. Top off after a big beat or if you're down to $4 or something, but otherwise, practice your short stack game.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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Some friends and I just started an NL Ring game and had our first game this weekend. We played .10/.25 $25 maximum buyin. This was the first time playing in such a game for some of the players including me and the host. I dipped a few dollars in the beginning and asked to rebuy enough to top off my stack to the $25 max. That started a whole big discussion on when to allow rebuying or "topping off." One guy was arguing that you shouldn't be able to rebuy until you bust out. I had to struggle a bit to get it to where you could rebuy if your stack got as low as $15 or lower.

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This sounds like tourney mentality. What reasons did they give to NOT allow topping off, adding on, whatever? If they want to play with a cap to limit the growth of the stacks, that's one thing.

I would suggest a structure of $25 max initial buy-in, rebuy max of either $50 or biggest existing stack, whichever is smaller.

"I would rather not play shortstacked."

..... because... ? pfap is right, work on your short game

" I could see how it could slow the game down a lot if someone was looking to buy more chips every hand however. "

Let money play. Have people buy chips from the other players in between hands.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Have a rule that you can onlyn re-buy when you bust, or you are really close to it. Don't allow topping off, its a waste of time.

I agree with allowing them to buy more to keep up with the big stacks. We run our cash games this way and it works well.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

In the majority of cash games I play in, there is a minimum and a maximum buy-in. And the rule for rebuy is that you can rebuy the minimum amount any time you fall below that amount and up to the maximum.

For example, in 1/2 NL the min is $100 and the max is $200. When your stack is at say $60, you can buy between $100 and $140 in chips. When I play in this game, as soon as I dip below $100, I top up to $200 the next hand. Some guys play $100 and rebuy for $100 more when they bust out. It seems to serve both types of players.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

I have only recently started playing No Limit and posting some hands for feedback in the 2p2 No Limit/Pot Limit MicroStakes Forum.

***One thing they invariably and firmly harp on is keeping a fully topped off stack.***

A lot of the guys in this thread not only seem to think keeping topped off isn't important, some of you seem willing to play down to nothing before rebuying. This is confusing me.

From my own experience I can tell you this: When I played Limit Hold'em at Cryptologic (before the US Ban) where there was no limit to the number of raises allowed when heads up--if I didn't have everybody at the table covered on those rare occassions when I got the nuts or near nuts and found myself against another very good hand--I felt like I'd foolishly squandered a great opportunity.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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I have only recently started playing No Limit and posting some hands for feedback in the 2p2 No Limit/Pot Limit MicroStakes Forum.

***One thing they invariably and firmly harp on is keeping a fully topped off stack.***

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I think NL players overdo this "must have max stack for max return" mantra. Are you more likely to max your hand return with a top-3 stack... or a smaller one, that people will feel they have to call? I don't know this answer, but I suspect the fear of a big stack can often keep bets down, maybe when you don't want them to... perhaps?

"A lot of the guys in this thread not only seem to think keeping topped off isn't important, some of you seem willing to play down to nothing before rebuying. "

Other than controlling the escalating cost of NL games, I don't understand this much either.

"From my own experience I can tell you this: When I played Limit Hold'em at Cryptologic (before the US Ban) where there was no limit to the number of raises allowed when heads up--if I didn't have everybody at the table covered on those rare occassions when I got the nuts or near nuts and found myself against another very good hand--I felt like I'd foolishly squandered a great opportunity."

If that happens a lot online, it might make sense. My experiences is that it happens much more rarely in live play, so you're not losing much with a few lost bets you could have had.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

This isn't a casino with dealers and chip runners and random fish. These are your friends trying to have a good time. Cut them some slack. Poker is a game of math and psychology. That second bit includes people skills, which is crucial to getting the first part in your favor. It also helps you be not a sociopath.

To be a great poker player you must excel in many forms and be adpatable. View this as a learning experience and try to adjust to various situations.

If you insist on topping off, buy extra and keep them in your pocket. That way at least you're not bugging anyone, but people may suspect you're adding them even when you're up. Just play short stacked, stop trying to rape your friends. You'll get the money eventually.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Sorry for the double post, but I was reminded of this...

In one of my goofier games... it's full of people who know full well how to play, but they love having a crazy maniac fest... anyway, once a few months back one of the bigger fish but nicer guys went bust and accidentally got dealt in a hand. I threw a buck on it as a blind all-in, and of course everyone called it to be fun and give him a shot. AKs. Repeat for a few hands that happen to be either monsters or hit weird, and suddenly he's up to over $40. He lost it all back, of course, but that's the power of one chip.

Fast forward to this week's game, and somehow we started throwing a chip to the guy we busted out for the same sort of thing. After a while it added an interesting element to the game, as you knew who'd be an all-in and where, and you could adjust your play accordingly. This time a rather tricky player was able to get that dollar up to $40 before crazy-ing it off, but granted that took a few starts.

Now, this may be a bit extreme for some folks, and it took me a while to properly adjust to this game (but last night ran over it, ha), but maximum return doesn't always mean having the most chips possible at all points. It means being a team player while subtly controlling your surroundings.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Reloading online, or even in a casino, is WAAAY easier than reloading in a home game.

Online, it doesnt slow down play at all. Click a mouse, and you have more chips. the other guys at the table might not even notice if they arent looking that closely at your dollar amount. Casinos have chip runners, and impact on the game is minimal.

In a home game everything comes to a grinding halt when someone needs more chips. The guy who's banking needs to get the chip case, count out, etc. and everyone waits while this goes on. I've been to lots of different home games, and even with the very well run ones, this is the case. It gets worse when you're playing with n00bs.

So... There's nothing wrong with topping off, but having a rule in place to limit when you can rebuy would help the game run a lot smoother. I'd get pretty pissed at the guy who kept topping off, because we would probably be waiting on him for the game to keep going.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Well... my home game is different from yours in that we don't have a maximum buyin, we have a minimum buyin of 40xBB. We allow adding to your stack at any time between hands for any amount.

Why would anyone object to a player putting more money on the table to be won? I would think that even the biggest luckboxing fish would want this.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Constant reloading would slow the game down too much, but having to wait til you bust out isn't ideal either, it should be up to each player. Allowing reloads once a player is down around $10 seems reasonable to me. Having your chips in racks instead of the generic aluminum case allows for quicker reloads. As long as the player acting as bank isn't dealing, reloads can be handled pretty smoothly, just make sure the chips aren't allowed to be played until the next hand.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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Well... my home game is different from yours in that we don't have a maximum buyin...Why would anyone object to a player putting more money on the table to be won?

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I'm an NL newbie but I think its so someone can use an really big stack to bully smaller stacks or maybe (also) to keep the game playing within some reasonable approximate limits relative to the blinds.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

you can rebuy to max at ANY TIME

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

if you can do it in online poker then it is legal and the rules for live, this is the case with rebuying to the max whenever you please

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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you can rebuy to max at ANY TIME

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I know you meant this, but to prevent confusion, You can only rebuy after a hand, not during.

Cody

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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you can rebuy to max at ANY TIME

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I know you meant this, but to prevent confusion, You can only rebuy after a hand, not during.

Cody

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Agree with the others. I use to have it set up that you couldn't rebuy unless your starting stack was below 50% of the max buyin...but I opened the rebuy up so that at any time (inbetween hands or when the player is out of the ongoing hand) you could buy back up to the max buyin. I'm pleased to repot that it has not slowed the game down and that guys don't get into the habit of rebuying back up to the max everytime they lose say 10% - 30% of their starting stack.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

At my NL home game there is neither max nor min, and anyone can rebuy at any time (between hands). How long does it take? You unload a stack of whatever color and hand it to the guy, he makes change from the pot or his neighbour when he's not in a hand. It doesn't slow things down anymore than the usual BS-ing that goes on between hands. And even if it did, it is +EV for the better players since it is more often the bad players who are re-buying.

But I know my game would drive many here to distraction. We allow rabbit hunting, (a) because I don't want to be a nit and kill the vibe, and (b) because I think it encourages bad players to be results-oriented. I want them to see that their gutshot would have come so that they call my PSB next time.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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I want them to see that their gutshot would have come so that they call my PSB next time.

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But more often than not they'll see that their gutshot wouldn't have come in and recieve reinforcement for the fold... I'd rather leave them thinking "if it came in I'd have made $$$, maybe I shoulda called".

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

We do a set buyin of $100 (.50/1 NL) and if you drop below 50 you can rebuy (or "top off") up to $100. Seems to work pretty well because you don't have people constantly topping off for like 10 bucks but you also avoid getting stuck with a short stack (or stuck with a bunch of short stacked opponents).

Re: Rabbit Hunting. Was: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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[Re: Rabbit Hunting] I want them to see that their gutshot would have come so that they call my PSB next time.

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But more often than not they'll see that their gutshot wouldn't have come in and recieve reinforcement for the fold... I'd rather leave them thinking "if it came in I'd have made $$$, maybe I shoulda called".

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Interesting sidebar. Rabbit hunting, a player would of course over time see the gutshot come out about 1 time in 11.5 (4 in 46) from the turn or about 1 time in 5.1 from the flop. So I wonder if they would be able to use that information to reinforce their decision to make the correct play, or if the weak player will employ selective memory to mostly remember the times it comes in and tend to forget the times is misses? Anyway, rabbit hunting slows down the game, so in that respect it is disadvantagous to the good player.

Re: Rabbit Hunting. Was: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

here's what we do in our home game and it works out very well...
We stack up beside the banker about $1000 woth of chips in stacks of 20's nad it takes 2 seconds to give someone their reload when they need it.

Re: Rabbit Hunting. Was: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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[Re: Rabbit Hunting] I want them to see that their gutshot would have come so that they call my PSB next time.

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But more often than not they'll see that their gutshot wouldn't have come in and recieve reinforcement for the fold... I'd rather leave them thinking "if it came in I'd have made $$$, maybe I shoulda called".

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Interesting sidebar. Rabbit hunting, a player would of course over time see the gutshot come out about 1 time in 11.5 (4 in 46) from the turn or about 1 time in 5.1 from the flop. So I wonder if they would be able to use that information to reinforce their decision to make the correct play, or if the weak player will employ selective memory to mostly remember the times it comes in and tend to forget the times is misses? Anyway, rabbit hunting slows down the game, so in that respect it is disadvantagous to the good player.

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That is what I find to be the case. I think it's called confirmation bias.

You have a point about the time taken. But it doesn't take that long and often coincides with the winner dragging the pot. That plus keeping the vibe positive makes it +EV for me (imo).

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Agree with this. At my home game, even with pre-stacked sticks in racks, rebuys slow stuff down. At the house/banker, it also means I miss out on action from time to time, which sucks.

For that reason, we allow someone to rebuy when they get below half the standard buy-in... no topping off when they've still got 70% of their starting chips. If you start people with a relatively good amount of chips in relation to the blinds, rebuys shouldn't be TOO much of a pain.

I invested in a few cheap, acryllic, casino-style chip racks and pre-count out stacks for rebuys, and this has made the process much, much easier. No need to open the chip case, etc...



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Reloading online, or even in a casino, is WAAAY easier than reloading in a home game.

Online, it doesnt slow down play at all. Click a mouse, and you have more chips. the other guys at the table might not even notice if they arent looking that closely at your dollar amount. Casinos have chip runners, and impact on the game is minimal.

In a home game everything comes to a grinding halt when someone needs more chips. The guy who's banking needs to get the chip case, count out, etc. and everyone waits while this goes on. I've been to lots of different home games, and even with the very well run ones, this is the case. It gets worse when you're playing with n00bs.

So... There's nothing wrong with topping off, but having a rule in place to limit when you can rebuy would help the game run a lot smoother. I'd get pretty pissed at the guy who kept topping off, because we would probably be waiting on him for the game to keep going.

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Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

Racks, people, racks. It makes all of this so much easier. Also, something I've started doing lately, which works amazingly well, is keep all the buy-in money folded in my back pocket. For some reason that's a lot faster (and safer) than picking it up out of a case or from wherever else to add another bill or two. And only a reasonable number of initial buyins are counted out in the smaller chips. Most rebuys are big chips and change is made on the table. In the six months of running my game, I've gotten it down rather well.

But no topping off, as that's not only incredibly unfair to the house banker, distracting him/her from action far too often, but it screws up nice and clean stacks of chips and money.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

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But no topping off, as that's not only incredibly unfair to the house banker, distracting him/her from action far too often, but it screws up nice and clean stacks of chips and money.

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The banker can always keep a freezer bag of chips sitting at his seat, for quick top-offs.. though I agree that abusing this would get a player cut off.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

A fairly easy solution to the top up causin the bank to miss action is to allow cash on the table before the cards are dealt to play
the banker can then turn the cash into chips when hes out of the hand or between hands

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

As long as it doesn't dramatically slow down the game, I believe that any players should be allowed to reload to the max after any hand. At my favorite home game, we have a banker that is either just hanging out, or doesn't mind missing a hand in order to get chips for a rebuy. Like someone previously said, who minds having more money on the table? If you believe that you are a better player than the rest of the table, which pretty much every single poker player I met does, then you want every player to have the largest stack possible in front of them for you to take.

Re: Need Rebuy Guidelines For a Ring Game
 

One of the home games I attend regularly has a 25% short stack re-buy, i.e., with a $40 buy in & you can rebuy another $40 when you dip below $10. It seems to work well for our game....