The official NETELLER thread. (First 40 days.) #1 of 2.
 

As we are receiving complaints that there are far too many new similar threads about Neteller starting every day, and that they are disrupting the forum and turning the place into a zoo, I am going to try to keep all Neteller comments and questions in this thread for a while.

Please refer people to this post, and please Notify Moderator on any new Neteller threads you see.

If you are answering someone's query, or making a comment about someone's post, to make it clearer for all readers, please start your post with the other poster's name.

Thanks. Let's see if we can get the relevant and useful information all in one thread for the benefit of all readers.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

Mike:

I am new to this forum and since you seem very knowledgable on the subject, I am going to repeat my earlier post to get your opinion. Thanks in advance.

There are still lots of poker rooms/sportsbooks currently servicing U.S. customers and the vast majority of them still have a check withdrawal option and most of them are still using U.S. check processors.

Neteller could VERY EASILY figure out a way to process U.S. customer withdrawals (either by calling the U.S. check processors that other sites use/by making some sort of arrangement with a European check processor or opening up a checking account and process the checks themselves).

As far as I know, Neteller still has control of U.S. accounts as I can't see how arresting 2 shareholders (even though they founded the company) can cause Neteller to lose control of their company.

Once again, thanks for responding.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

andywend,

I don't claim to be any more knowledgeable about Neteller than anyone else, but I do have faith in them in terms of their returning money to all their members, in due early course. (I accept this is based mainly on their being authorised by the FSA, and knowing personally through what hoops one has to jump to become authorised.)

Unless they have been running a fraud on an absolutely massive scale, with the knowledge and assistance of many employees, accountants, banks, etc, they have all money belonging to their members, fully intact. Why they can't or won't release this, immediately, is a matter for speculation, at this moment.

The longer they hold onto US members' money, without releasing a full explanation, the more damage to their credibility occurs, and their other members throughout the world get more nervous and move their money out. A slippery slope of which they are obviously fully aware. If they hold onto US members' funds for more than six weeks, I doubt if they will ever recover to be the big name they were. On the other hand, if there is some strange but reasonable logistical problem that they have, owing to what has suddenly happened, and they solve this and start moving money very soon, the opposite may happen, and confidence in their business ethics should be completely restored, (as far as the rest of the world is concerned).

Whatever happens over the next few weeks will be a major learning experience for just about every company, and, indeed, every individual, in the world.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

Mike

well, since you started the thread I figured I might as well ask, what is your best guess at an expected timeframe for Neteller to return money to US players.

My estimation is 1-1.5 years, I was just curious to see what others think (I tend to be somewhat cynical).

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

If Neteller plans on staying in business long term, then I would think they are actively trying to come up with a plan to get our money back to us soon.

Yes, they make interest on our money. However, I would guess they are in short-term liquid investments that make, at best, maybe 5%. That's a daily rate of 0.01%. Not a significant enough amount to a company that was/is valued at hundreds of millions of dollars.

The upper management, actively running Neteller, probably doesn't own a huge percentage of the company. In general, people with these circumstances are not going to try and run the company into the ground, if they can help it. They want to be able to keep their jobs and know the longer they delay in paying us out, the more damage it costs the company long-term (well more than 0.01% per day).

I have already heard cases of non-US people being apprehensive about using Neteller now, and I am certain Neteller realizes this, too. IF Neteller were smart though, they would offer to pay interest to US-locked accounts at the T-bill rate or equivalent. This would cost the company very little and do a tremendous amount for PR long-term.

Another scenario I have come up with though...
They are attempting to keep the illusion of paying US accounts until they can get their stock trading again, so they can dump any shares they may have. Then, let the company burn.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

Mercman572,

Let's add the obligatory poll.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

from info I've heard they are waiting to pay US customers until they are advised by their legal counsel which route of action they are taking

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In February 3rd article in the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."

*

Edit/MH: See Bobo Fett's response in this thread, below.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Neteller plans on staying in business long term, then I would think they are actively trying to come up with a plan to get our money back to us soon.

Yes, they make interest on our money. However, I would guess they are in short-term liquid investments that make, at best, maybe 5%. That's a daily rate of 0.01%. Not a significant enough amount to a company that was/is valued at hundreds of millions of dollars.

The upper management, actively running Neteller, probably doesn't own a huge percentage of the company. In general, people with these circumstances are not going to try and run the company into the ground, if they can help it. They want to be able to keep their jobs and know the longer they delay in paying us out, the more damage it costs the company long-term (well more than 0.01% per day).

I have already heard cases of non-US people being apprehensive about using Neteller now, and I am certain Neteller realizes this, too. IF Neteller were smart though, they would offer to pay interest to US-locked accounts at the T-bill rate or equivalent. This would cost the company very little and do a tremendous amount for PR long-term.

Another scenario I have come up with though...
They are attempting to keep the illusion of paying US accounts until they can get their stock trading again, so they can dump any shares they may have. Then, let the company burn.

[/ QUOTE ]

VERY possible - I've been through one of these (albeit on a much much smaller scale - Nasdaq small cap) and unfortunately not a zillion miles removed from some of those canadian & NY people 'associated' with NT

The market makers and merchant banks will be calling most of the shots at the moment

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."



[/ QUOTE ]

Oh could we pleeeeeeease stop refering to that lame article. As has been mentioned numerous times before, how would this have occured and NO news of it have leaked out? The USA Today article appears to be a mish-mash of info from the BetOnSports and Neteller cases. If funds had been seized, this would be HUGE news. The article you have quoted takes the USA Today piece and combines it with an Online Wire piece, where the same FBI agent says "What's in there [USA Today article] is in there, but I really cannot comment further.", and they cite "wire reports" claiming the FBI has seized funds. What wire reports? Why has no one else picked up these wire reports?

The same inaccurate information is being quoted and requoted in different articles, and the story gets farther and farther from any kind of properly confirmed truth.

If you are going to refer to a news article, there was a much better one in the Washington Post refered to in this thread:

Washington Post

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."



[/ QUOTE ]

Some people may get their money back? That is not comforting at all.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

that's my guess too.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."



[/ QUOTE ]

Oh could we pleeeeeeease stop refering to that lame article. As has been mentioned numerous times before, how would this have occured and NO news of it have leaked out? The USA Today article appears to be a mish-mash of info from the BetOnSports and Neteller cases. If funds had been seized, this would be HUGE news. The article you have quoted takes the USA Today piece and combines it with an Online Wire piece, where the same FBI agent says "What's in there [USA Today article] is in there, but I really cannot comment further.", and they cite "wire reports" claiming the FBI has seized funds. What wire reports? Why has no one else picked up these wire reports?

The same inaccurate information is being quoted and requoted in different articles, and the story gets farther and farther from any kind of properly confirmed truth.

If you are going to refer to a news article, there was a much better one in the Washington Post refered to in this thread:

Washington Post

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a retraction be demanded if the article was wrong in a fundemental point, ie DOJ seized money? Wouldn't one of the parties concerned demand it?

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."



[/ QUOTE ]

Oh could we pleeeeeeease stop refering to that lame article. As has been mentioned numerous times before, how would this have occured and NO news of it have leaked out? The USA Today article appears to be a mish-mash of info from the BetOnSports and Neteller cases. If funds had been seized, this would be HUGE news. The article you have quoted takes the USA Today piece and combines it with an Online Wire piece, where the same FBI agent says "What's in there [USA Today article] is in there, but I really cannot comment further.", and they cite "wire reports" claiming the FBI has seized funds. What wire reports? Why has no one else picked up these wire reports?

The same inaccurate information is being quoted and requoted in different articles, and the story gets farther and farther from any kind of properly confirmed truth.

If you are going to refer to a news article, there was a much better one in the Washington Post refered to in this thread:

Washington Post

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a retraction be demanded if the article was wrong in a fundemental point, ie DOJ seized money? Wouldn't one of the parties concerned demand it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not wrong, except maybe grammatically, so people are misreading it. The only seizure of funds was betonsports funds withdrawn to neteller by US players, NOT ALL FUNDS WITHDRAWN TO NETELLER BY US PLAYERS.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

you are right jman220, I stand corrected.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."



[/ QUOTE ]

Oh could we pleeeeeeease stop refering to that lame article. As has been mentioned numerous times before, how would this have occured and NO news of it have leaked out? The USA Today article appears to be a mish-mash of info from the BetOnSports and Neteller cases. If funds had been seized, this would be HUGE news. The article you have quoted takes the USA Today piece and combines it with an Online Wire piece, where the same FBI agent says "What's in there [USA Today article] is in there, but I really cannot comment further.", and they cite "wire reports" claiming the FBI has seized funds. What wire reports? Why has no one else picked up these wire reports?

The same inaccurate information is being quoted and requoted in different articles, and the story gets farther and farther from any kind of properly confirmed truth.

If you are going to refer to a news article, there was a much better one in the Washington Post refered to in this thread:

Washington Post

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a retraction be demanded if the article was wrong in a fundemental point, ie DOJ seized money? Wouldn't one of the parties concerned demand it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not wrong, except maybe grammatically, so people are misreading it. The only seizure of funds was betonsports funds withdrawn to neteller by US players, NOT ALL FUNDS WITHDRAWN TO NETELLER BY US PLAYERS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, this is the most likely scenario that fits what was said. Of course, the article gets requoted in other articles, and the BetOnSports portion becomes a smaller and smaller part of the story. Before you know it, it just becomes "ZOMG the DOJ has seized ALL Amercian's Neteller funds that's why we can't cash out".

I won't attempt to guess at when or if everyone's money is coming back, but the USA Today story (and subsequent spinoffs) provides NOTHING in the way of news to anyone who reads these boards.

As to a retraction, I'm not sure that anybody would want one. I'm sure the DOJ/FBI are more than happy having American gamblers freaked out about their funds. Neteller is likely happy that there is an explanation that doesn't fall on them.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

I am glad I posted this article and got intelligent replies. Hopefully others will get the correct info and feel better informed.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]


My estimation is 1-1.5 years, I was just curious to see what others think (I tend to be somewhat cynical).

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is 6-12 MORE weeks. And I'm saying there's a 80% chance U.S. players get their money back.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


My estimation is 1-1.5 years, I was just curious to see what others think (I tend to be somewhat cynical).

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is 6-12 MORE weeks. And I'm saying there's a 80% chance U.S. players get their money back.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take $100 (or less, or more) of 4:1 at 12 weeks if you're interested in the prop

Sell your NT Debt
 

The acid test: What would you sell your Neteller debt for today, cash?

I'm thinking it's worth about 50 cents/$. Obviously, I was way out in front of this and have nothing at risk here, but if I did, 50% sounds fair.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
The acid test: What would you sell your Neteller debt for today, cash?

I'm thinking it's worth about 50 cents/$. Obviously, I was way out in front of this and have nothing at risk here, but if I did, 50% sounds fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sell you my neteller monies for 50% on the dollar.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


My estimation is 1-1.5 years, I was just curious to see what others think (I tend to be somewhat cynical).

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is 6-12 MORE weeks. And I'm saying there's a 80% chance U.S. players get their money back.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take $100 (or less, or more) of 4:1 at 12 weeks if you're interested in the prop

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you accept Neteller P2P transfers? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


My estimation is 1-1.5 years, I was just curious to see what others think (I tend to be somewhat cynical).

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is 6-12 MORE weeks. And I'm saying there's a 80% chance U.S. players get their money back.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take $100 (or less, or more) of 4:1 at 12 weeks if you're interested in the prop

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you accept Neteller P2P transfers? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The acid test: What would you sell your Neteller debt for today, cash?

I'm thinking it's worth about 50 cents/$. Obviously, I was way out in front of this and have nothing at risk here, but if I did, 50% sounds fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sell you my neteller monies for 50% on the dollar.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much do you have in there? I'd probably be interested in this if you're serious.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

calm down,the odds you are eventually getting paid is >95%.
it is almost certain that the money is there in the trust.
as long as the money is really there, I dont see why people worry so much.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

yes, the money IS in a trust......until NT reaches an out of court settlement with the DoJ

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes, the money IS in a trust......until NT reaches an out of court settlement with the DoJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not how trust's work. Its not Neteller's money and they can't each a settlement to do anything with it.

The DOJ needs to come after each person if they want to seize those accounts I believe.

I could be way off base, but this is my understanding of the situation.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

Well, I just got off chat with CS, and I know they are probably uninformed, but I didn't accept canned responses and here is what I got out of them anyway.

My efts are pending and have been for a while, supposedly because they can't process them. I asked why they don't just cancel them and they said because they are leaving them in queue so it will be first asked first served when they are able to.

I asked if EFT can't be processed do to technical difficulties or legal ones and she said she was informed it was the former.

I asked about time frames and was not given one.

I finally asked if she felt confident I would get paid eventually and she said absolutely yes.

do I feel better? a little, at least they are still cordially talking to me. Luckily I don't need it right now, but if I lose it i'll be crying big tears. I honestly believe I'll get it at some time though.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

This is almost certainly correct.

Say a bank (I know Neteller isn't exactly a bank) has a couple of executives who are up to illegal activities. They get arrested and the bank's assets are frozen.

I doubt they can say "well the bank did bad, so we get all the customers money"

If they want the individual customers money they would have to go after each individual customer and prove they did wrong doing.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

I wonder if neteller is going to start servicing their non-US customers properly. I'm in NZ and if I want to cash out I have to email memberwire then I get rung up and have to give my bank details over the phone. Is this how it is for other non-US customers? Not a sophisticated cash out method.

Re: The official NETELLER thread. (18 days on.)
 

Linkback to the Primary Neteller thread in Legislation

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if neteller is going to start servicing their non-US customers properly. I'm in NZ and if I want to cash out I have to email memberwire then I get rung up and have to give my bank details over the phone. Is this how it is for other non-US customers? Not a sophisticated cash out method.

[/ QUOTE ]No.

I had to give them my bank account info once, and now when I request a withdrawal on the website, it automatically ends up in my bank account in a few days.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The acid test: What would you sell your Neteller debt for today, cash?

I'm thinking it's worth about 50 cents/$. Obviously, I was way out in front of this and have nothing at risk here, but if I did, 50% sounds fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sell you my neteller monies for 50% on the dollar.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much do you have in there? I'd probably be interested in this if you're serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 100% serious. I have $4.80 and they won't let me withdraw anything less than $5. So really that 4.80 = 0. If someone will pay me $2.40 for it, I'm infinitely better off.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The acid test: What would you sell your Neteller debt for today, cash?

I'm thinking it's worth about 50 cents/$. Obviously, I was way out in front of this and have nothing at risk here, but if I did, 50% sounds fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sell you my neteller monies for 50% on the dollar.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much do you have in there? I'd probably be interested in this if you're serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 100% serious. I have $4.80 and they won't let me withdraw anything less than $5. So really that 4.80 = 0. If someone will pay me $2.40 for it, I'm infinitely better off.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The acid test: What would you sell your Neteller debt for today, cash?

I'm thinking it's worth about 50 cents/$. Obviously, I was way out in front of this and have nothing at risk here, but if I did, 50% sounds fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sell you my neteller monies for 50% on the dollar.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much do you have in there? I'd probably be interested in this if you're serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 100% serious. I have $4.80 and they won't let me withdraw anything less than $5. So really that 4.80 = 0. If someone will pay me $2.40 for it, I'm infinitely better off.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's acceptable; no minimum required here. I do charge a $25 service fee per transaction. PM me if interested.

WIth each passing day, Neteller loses credibility
 

I already know of one site that is still servicing U.S. customers and has decided to no longer deal with Neteller for non-U.S. deposits and withdrawals.

Other sites will soon follow suit as long as Neteller keeps dancing around what is really happening. Its simply a matter of trust and you can't trust Neteller the way they are acting.

I am sure more than one U.S. account holder has specifically asked Neteller if they are still in control of our funds or if the funds have been seized and yet nobody knows for sure.

If they can't find a U.S. check processor to process U.S. customer withdrawals, then find a European one or process the checks themselves. If the DOJ has somehow seized all of the funds, then disclose that. They need to be upfront and honest about everything and obviously that isn't happening.

The best chance U.S. citizens have is if there is a huge raid at the WSOP and prominent poker celebrities like Doyle Brunson, Phil Hellmuth, Howard Lederer, etc, are arrested for their affiliations with online poker sites. If this happens, that will spark a huge outrage as they are all high profile people.

As far as writing to your congressmen on an individual basis, that won't do a bit of good as they simply don't care about the concerns of their constitutents. If you want access to these crooked politicians, then you have to pay BIG BUCKS like the horseracing, tobacco and alcohol industries do.

Re: WIth each passing day, Neteller loses credibility
 

Why make locked threads?

Neteller deserves its own forum ... at least until this is resolved.

I know personally I don't care about much else on these boards besides the Neteller situation for the moment.

*

Edit/MH: There is discussion in ATF, requesting a temporary Neteller Forum. Please add your name to the list, if you think this would be a good idea.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
calm down,the odds you are eventually getting paid is >95%.
it is almost certain that the money is there in the trust.
as long as the money is really there, I dont see why people worry so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, where did you come up with 95%? People are worrying because we have a lot of money there and we would like to have our money.

Re: The official NETELLER thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._neteller.html

In the USA Today, FBI agent Neil Donovan told the USA Today that "funds from Neteller are being held in court as potential evidence. Some customers may get their money back."




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Some people may get their money back? That is not comforting at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the FBI's purpose might be served by making non-comforting statements.

Re: Sell your NT Debt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calm down,the odds you are eventually getting paid is >95%.
it is almost certain that the money is there in the trust.
as long as the money is really there, I dont see why people worry so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, where did you come up with 95%? People are worrying because we have a lot of money there and we would like to have our money.

[/ QUOTE ]

because the odds the money is there in a trust is like 99%.
their financial statement shows the money and unless there is a unlikely huge-scale accounting fraud going on inside Neteller, we should trust the financial report which is also audited by one of the biggest accounting firms in the world. OK, now if the money is there, the Neteller executives face two choices with the money: 1, pay back all the US customers and continue his business in other parts of the world. sure, they will make less money than before but they still get to keep their high-paying jobs and all the perks.
2, close the shop, steal the money from the trust and go hide in the mountains of Pakistan.
i will be very surprised if they choose option 2 because it turn them into criminals. and they would be very naive to believe they can get away with it. BTW, it is not as easy as you guys think to tranfer all the money from a trust to their personal bank accounts.
so this is just some common sense. And I too have lot of money in Neteller. I am still worried, but not as much as most people on this forum.