JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $176.25
Hero: $197
Button: $62.25
SB: $250
BB: $162.85

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $9</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($29, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $20</font>, SB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($69, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($69, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $42</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $84</font>

Villian was unknown.
Can hero push here for value or is a call better?
This min-c/r looks really strong...

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

You beat 55, TT, and KQ/AQ. You lose to QJ, QT. Isn't there a theory by someone on SSNL that says a raise,esp. a min raise is almost always the nuts? I think I just call here.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

[ QUOTE ]
You beat 55, TT, and KQ/AQ. You lose to QJ, QT. Isn't there a theory by someone on SSNL that says a raise,esp. a min raise is almost always the nuts? I think I just call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

90% sure you're refering to BW's theorem, which is ... a minbet turn means one pair is no good

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

edit for the actual hand:

I'd go broke, it was played so weak on your part that there's no way villain can put your on a house. If you lose to QT, so be it... but he's also doing this with 55, KQ, AQ, AK.. which i think is right on target -especially with no real reads given

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

Shove.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You beat 55, TT, and KQ/AQ. You lose to QJ, QT. Isn't there a theory by someone on SSNL that says a raise,esp. a min raise is almost always the nuts? I think I just call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

90% sure you're refering to BW's theorem, which is ... a minbet turn means one pair is no good

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

edit for the actual hand:

I'd go broke, it was played so weak on your part that there's no way villain can put your on a house. If you lose to QT, so be it... but he's also doing this with 55, KQ, AQ, AK.. which i think is right on target -especially with no real reads given

[/ QUOTE ]

DB theorem, river c/r=nuts

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

damn this is tough, and i'm curious what others think.

from a purely equity maximizing standpoint, i think this would be a push. there are more hands that you beat and call. you underrepresented your hand and i can see him thinking his Qs are good and minraising the river for value.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

DO unknown villians really play AK like this? (Not 3bet PF, call on flop when hero bets into field of 3?)

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

His c/r doesnt really make sense. Why wouldnt he just lead the river after we checked behind the turn if he wanted to get paid off? Ive seen dumb villians take this line and end up having like a lone T or something retarded like that.

I still say shove.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

"DO unknown villians really play AK like this? (Not 3bet PF, call on flop when hero bets into field of 3?)"

Yes.

"His c/r doesnt really make sense. Why wouldnt he just lead the river after we checked behind the turn if he wanted to get paid off? Ive seen dumb villians take this line and end up having like a lone T or something retarded like that.

I still say shove. "

Yes. Yes. Yes.

http://www.harvardpilgrim.mimrx.com/...1514989006.JPG

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

I think I just call here.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shove.

[/ QUOTE ]
i actually agree more with this line, i think we are missing a lot of value from the most like AK or AQ,

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

[q] DO unknown villians really play AK like this? (Not 3bet PF, call on flop when hero bets into field of 3?) [/q]
sadly, yes. all the time

The call on the flop can also be setting you up to bet you out, the odds of you havign a queen arent enormous, and Ak will beat alot of unpaired hands you would c-bet the pot on the flop with

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

Additionally, do you believe 55 is in villains range? Maybe I am naive, but I dont see many calling down 8 more $ oop to see the flop with 5's

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

a river check minraise wants a call and usually encourages a shove. with no reads, I dont think a shove has a whole lot of value here. I call and put notes on him afterwards.

I like the way you played this, and I play the same.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

just calling is weak. stop giving him so much credit, hands u beat that pay off &gt; hands u lose to

and why do u think river cr must be nuts, heros line hasnt been too strong and tons of hands could be trying to get value from something they think hero has that isnt a boat

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

I think this is a really standard shove. Calling seems VERY weak.

Re: JJ on a paired QQ board --> riverd fh
 

here the results

i shoved it for value and he showed me QJo
so the 1outer-jack on the River was the worst case for me ^^

but he was slowplaying his trips postflop so i think he would c/r min also just with trips