Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Last orbit in my session. I don't really like playing at the Wynn. Table is chaos. Villain is loose and a pretty bad player. And I'm stuck for the session.

In the CO, I pick up KK, raise two limpers, who call.

Flop is 876 with two spades.

Check to me. I bet, get c/r by first limper. Second limper folds and I pitch my KK into the muck face up. Villain mucks, not showing.

My thinking--which might have been influenced by (very) minor tilt is he had a made hand and I was drawing dead. Even if I were still ahead, I had to dodge many outs for 2 more big bets.

Where I think I went wrong is since he didn't show, he outplayed me, maybe. He might have had an overpair to the board and was hoping I missed with AK or such...if he is capable of thinking at all, which we can't suspect. If he had hit the flop and made the straight on the flop, he would most likely have smooth called the flop and c/r the turn--which I would have done in his place. He might have just gotten overeager with his straight, which could be the case.

Comments? Is the fold really, really weak/tight in this game?

TIA,
CJ

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Didn't we already have this hand somewhere before? I could have sworns someone already posted about folding KK on a flop like this? Anyway it's a retarded fold.

When you get raised on the flop holding KK in a limit game and there's not ace on the flop your response should be "let's stick more money in the middle"

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

I think calling is ok, I would not have folded. I may of reraise to get a better idea where I stand. If he caps it I call and check the turn. Then that would be my hard choice. I may just call him down. I have seen so many players over play top pair and the nut flush draw. If he has two pair you have a few more outs if you can pair the right card. I put him on a hand like JJ-99. A bigger PP he would of reraise preflop.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

this is awful, sorry

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

if you think you are drawing dead, just call down.

What I would do, is call the flop c/r, and raise a non 5,6,9, or T turn card. Those I just call down.

Folding anywhere on this hand is bad.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Depending on the player, I would probably call the flop and attempted a raise on the turn. You must at least see a turn card. Then flipping your cards over is a HUGE mistake as it shows all your opponents that you can be run over. You probably should leave the table at this point.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Bad fold, as others have mentioned. Loose, bad players can have way too many hands here for you to fold this. And the face up fold, as others have mentioned, is bad. Since you're planning on leaving soon it isn't as big of a deal, but even bad players will play back at you if they see you can fold like that.

I'd 3-bet the flop and probably call down if it's capped. Depends on how aggressive the table has been.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Yes, its really bad.

Also, why did you decide to show your hand? To prove how good you are?

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

I agree with the rest, this is muy malo. People at these low limits loooove to slowplay thier big hands and raise on the turn. He usually has a strong draw with maybe a pair, I think you mucked the winner.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Folding here or calling down is not nearly as big of a mistake as folding face up and exposing your cards.

You should never fold face up for many reasons:

1) It says, "I am not sure if I am laying down a winner, but I dont want to gamble with you, so I'm going to show you what you are making me lay down, so that if I'm right I gain some psychological edge, and if I'm wrong, I make you feel bad" All of this is stupid and unnecessary.
2) Most importantly, by doing this, you tell the whole table that you can be raised off your hand on scary boards, and this is really really really bad, worse than making a bad call down or a bad fold. People will remember this and use it as a reason to take shots at you all night long.
3) You unnessarily make him feel like a champ if all he has is A8 or TT. Had you folded face down, he wouldnt have this extra psychological edge on you because you wouldnt have given it to him.

If you decide to fold because your read is telling you you are a big underdog to have the best hand, you should muck and say, "You got me, I missed."

Going back to the hand, against a tight nitty rock I dont mind the laydown, provided you have some read and experience with the guy. Against an unknown or a tricky guy, you should just call down. Remember you have position on the guy and some turn or river card may slow him down and make his hand apparent and you can even get a value bet out of it or chose to check it down. When you have a big pocket pair, it makes it slightly more likely for others to have pocket pairs, and he could very likely have something like 99 or TT. Or he could have 9Ts and you could be almost dead.

Remember, they are going to c/r alot of hands, some that beat you, some that dont.

Those of you who are saying the OP is silly for folding are wrong and do not give your opponents enough credit. There are situations where I would definitely fold this. This flop did not help up at all, and could have easily given one of two opponents a better hand, or at least good draw. While I dont recommend just auto-folding, I dont think folding is the worst play, but it all depends on who is check raising. But dont muck your hand face up in this situation, ever!

-J

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
influenced by (very) minor tilt

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Feels more like a check raise semi bluff to me.

I call here, and check/call down.

If I muck, I *certainly* don't show KK to the whole table, letting them know I fold KK for one small bet in an HU situation.

But I'm personally never folding KK here. In fact I'm 3 betting some players in some cases. I suppose if I know the player really well, and I can put him on a hand that beats me, then I could fold.

Instead of showing KK, I'm more likely to say "that's what I get for bluffing with pocket dueces".

AB

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Your technique is terrible. Try not to flip your wrist so much as you muck, so your cards stay face down. Take an extra second to control yourself, then lay it down nice and smooth like. Your results will improve.

Then you can work on step 2... NOT FOLDING THE NUTS. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

good luck.
Eric

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on the player, I would probably call the flop and attempted a raise on the turn. You must at least see a turn card. Then flipping your cards over is a HUGE mistake as it shows all your opponents that you can be run over. You probably should leave the table at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's fine to let your opponents know you can be run over, as long as it isn't true. If OP changes his play after showing this laydown, this table could become quite profitable.

good luck.
Eric

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Thanks for the advice. I agree with much of it absolutely. Some might be situational. I should have reraised, and would have in hindsight. However, I'm fairly certain I was behind.

Guys at this level do not check/raise as much as they do in NL. Usually when they c/r, they've got something pretty big. If he was c/r bluffing, then it was an accidental move.

And it was the last hand I was playing, so no big deal. However, I'd be quite happy for anything to think they can run over me. They're in for a big surprise, at some point.

Again, just confirming I'm a moron. Thanks for the help.

CJ

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Pretty bad.

I call flop, and raise any turn that doesnt make a 4 card straight. I prob fold turn if the guy 3 bets, if he isnt LAGGY.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Urrgghh, this is bad.

I 3-bet here and slow down to a cap. The board would have to continue to get scary for me to find a fold against loose/horrible players.

Please don't fold, and don't fold this face up. You're begging people to take shots at you.

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

Funny story, related, from Caesars Palace last night.

Same KK hand in LP. Flop comes middle cards, all spades. EP caller bets out. This guy had shortly before cracked my AA when he rivered a straight and I got my set. He's terrible, on a rush, and has thus infuriating smirk when he drags a pot he didn't deserve. He thinks he knows how to play.

So I call his bet on the flop. I really, really wanted to pop it, but if he'd re-raised me, I'd have a tough decision.

He bets the brick on the turn and I call.

Ace [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes on the river, he checks and I check behind. Again, I know it's weak, but I cannot bet into this board with no spade at all.

He says he has no spade at all and mucks his hand when he sees my KK (doing his usual slow roll, he doesn't show his garbage hand he thought was good). He was behind the whole time. I'm thinking of the hand I posted the whole time.

This makes my fold even worse, but I made some money back on this one. It's not easy playing against these bozos, but profitable.

Card dead and stuck almost a hundred, I came back to finish with a modest $37 profit for 3 hours. Most of the comeback was made with aggression and table image--two things that most think are not in play at 4/8 tables.

Despite the previous hand, guys, I can play. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

CJ

Re: Wynn 4/8 How bad is this fold?
 

3 BETS. hes trying to take control of the hand with his A8. if he bets out on the turn its an easy fold.