9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

Fairly typical Commerce 9/18 game - I'm getting sucked out on and am stuck for about 2 racks UGH. I get QQ on the button. My image is hyper-aggressive as I raise alot.

Villain this time is probably among the best 3 players at the table - tight and aggressive. He's two to my right in mp3

A couple limpers, villain raises, I re-raise. Folds back to villain who calls.

Flop comes J6Q

Villain checks to me - do I bet? is this a good place to slowplay heads up?

Also, should I have gone for overcalls preflop, and just called villain's raise?


AB

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

PF: I think 3-bet is important as you don't want overcards hanging around, unless you actually think your going to get 6 callers which would give you set value.
Flop: The villain is tight and aggressive, so he probably has something given the MP raise. For example his range might be 99+, ATs, and AJ, which would mean a lot of the time he will not be folding here when you bet. Moreover, you would expect him to check-raise you with his AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, so that you can 3-bet him. Additionally, he would also expect you to continuation bet the flop, so he will likely call your bet or even raise your bet, giving you the opportunity to 3-bet. So I bet out the flop, and 3-bet a check raise. Lead the turn if he calls your bet.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

Bet. You 3-bet pf and are expected to bet whether you have hit or not. Checking here would look extremely fishy and slowplaying these hands rarely gets the most money in the pot.

I almost always 3-bet QQ here. This is a strong hand and you want to get the limpers to put more money in or give up their dead money.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

bet if you like money, check if you don't.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

I agree. You should definitely bet there since a check would give your hand away. You have built up a good table image and now its time to use it. If he check raises I might think about slowplaying a bit more, depends on what you put him on. If he has JJ slowplaying is just horrible.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

Okay - just checking. I bet of course, and he folded.

Just hate it when I'm stuck due to suck outs and then no one pays ME off... lol


AB

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

I bet, because it would look fishy if you didn't. What would you 3-bet with PF that you wouldn't bet that flop with?

Monsters.

Keep your range broad and bet. If he raises, then I might just call and raise the turn, but if you had AK, you might 3-bet for a freebie.

How thinking is he? If he is a good hand reader, then you can be quite deceptive by being aggro.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

retarded post

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

You sir are a knob jockey of the highest order.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

you have the nuts. put in as many bets as you can. there is zero reason to slowplay in an already pretty big pot and if he has AK you'll feel especially stupid as he will always peel there and if you give him a free look at his gutshot you'll want to stab your eyes out.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]

PF: I think 3-bet is important as you don't want overcards hanging around, unless you actually think your going to get 6 callers which would give you set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

even if you thought you'd get 6 callers, you should still 3-bet. playing QQ for only set value is leaving money on the table.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay - just checking. I bet of course, and he folded.

Just hate it when I'm stuck due to suck outs and then no one pays ME off... lol


AB

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good that you are thinking about this situation

i don't believe you ought to dismiss your thinking about trying a slow play here...i believe i would have checked on flop, hoping to induce a stab on the turn...heads up, against a TAG, its trickery time!!

you were up against a TAG player, one you think may have had some hand reading ability, and perhaps if you had checked he would think you held AK and had missed the flop...seems worth a shot...he would think you held AA-JJ, AK given that you 3bet preflop, then a check behind on the turn might tempt him to attempt...this seems like a spot where some 2nd and 3rd level thinking could be useful

anyway, i can't argue much with the result...a sure small win is better than an iffy big one...

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, should I have gone for overcalls preflop, and just called villain's raise?


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Because you hit a set? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It can be a nice move with AA though.

Bet the flop. If he c/raises, call and raise the turn.

b

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, you would expect him to check-raise you with his AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, so that you can 3-bet him.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make more calling and raising the turn. If he c/r'es you, he will most likely bet the turn. It's odd if he doesn't. If you 3 bet, he may go into a shell.

b

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
i believe i would have checked on flop, hoping to induce a stab on the turn...heads up, against a TAG, its trickery time!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Your range should be wide as to what you'd bet the flop with here. Checking it looks very suspicious. Note that OP could've bought this pot with any hand on this flop. Him actually having a set is irrelevant.

[ QUOTE ]
and perhaps if you had checked he would think you held AK and had missed the flop...seems worth a shot...he would think you held AA-JJ, AK given that you 3bet preflop, then a check behind on the turn might tempt him to attempt...this seems like a spot where some 2nd and 3rd level thinking could be useful


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You aren't thinking of checking behind so you then raise the turn, are you? You want to bet where you can be representing the widest range of hands.

I'd bet this flop with AK.

One of the best ways to play the 2nd or 3rd level thinking game is to just play it str8 forward.

b

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
You sir are a knob jockey of the highest order.

[/ QUOTE ]


probably, but this thread is useless. You flop top set, just bet, he might have AA and c/r, then you can raise the turn.

This thread is akin to "I flopped quads and I don't know what to do"

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

" Quote:
Moreover, you would expect him to check-raise you with his AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, so that you can 3-bet him.



"You make more calling and raising the turn. If he c/r'es you, he will most likely bet the turn. It's odd if he doesn't. If you 3 bet, he may go into a shell.

b"
Bernie,
point taken. thanks,

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet this flop with AK.

One of the best ways to play the 2nd or 3rd level thinking game is to just play it str8 forward.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay... just thinking if there's a way to extract more from my strong hands, especially against stronger players.

I know I still have leaks - but these two threads indicate to me my leaks are elsewhere...

Thanks for all comments.

AB

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

haven't read other responses yet, but put your foot on the gas.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking it looks very suspicious. Note that OP could've bought this pot with any hand on this flop. Him actually having a set is irrelevant.


You aren't thinking of checking behind so you then raise the turn, are you? You want to bet where you can be representing the widest range of hands.

I'd bet this flop with AK.

One of the best ways to play the 2nd or 3rd level thinking game is to just play it str8 forward.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

1-okay, it looks suspect i'll agree, and the villain is a good player as the OP noted...so, let's confuse/tempt him

2-am i thinking of checking behind...yes i would do that--we may lose one small bet if he were to call...but perhaps he would bet the turn...and i would try it here too...just how aggressive is the villain, and how aggressive does he think i am...i would think we have the villain beat, so we risk losing him...i would play a little and check behind--maybe its not the best, but, its different...

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

At this point in the evening, villain's read on me is that I'm very aggressive, and a bit loose (relative to the rocks at this table).

AB

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
1-okay, it looks suspect i'll agree, and the villain is a good player as the OP noted...so, let's confuse/tempt him


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You may be outthinking yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
2-am i thinking of checking behind...yes i would do that--we may lose one small bet if he were to call...but perhaps he would bet the turn...and i would try it here too...just how aggressive is the villain, and how aggressive does he think i am...i would think we have the villain beat, so we risk losing him...i would play a little and check behind--maybe its not the best, but, its different...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you're saying here. I was asking if you check behind on the flop, and he bets the turn, are you then going to raise the turn?

Not to mention, you checking twice looks really suspicious if he checks the turn and you check behind.(if that's what you were saying above).

b

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]
At this point in the evening, villain's read on me is that I'm very aggressive, and a bit loose (relative to the rocks at this table).

AB

[/ QUOTE ]

All the more reason to bet.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

"Not sure what you're saying here. I was asking if you check behind on the flop, and he bets the turn, are you then going to raise the turn?"

b

yes indeed...thanks for your feedback...sorry about the confusion, it happens a lot to people around me...

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

Have you considered the open-fold? It prevents the frequency of suck-outs.

Figured I could add some value to the discussion.

Re: 9/18 live Commerce Flop top set
 

[ QUOTE ]

"Not sure what you're saying here. I was asking if you check behind on the flop, and he bets the turn, are you then going to raise the turn?"

b

yes indeed...thanks for your feedback...sorry about the confusion, it happens a lot to people around me...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise this turn?

b