Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

(This is really a nip-it-in-the-bud post)

SSNL has had a few visitors recently. Namely, Sunny and Matt Flynn who are writing a book on NLHE, and limon an old school vet of 2p2.

Frankly, I'm appalled at some of the comments I've seen directed at them. And it's not just them, there's some attitude and insults flying around in other threads as well. And it's got to come to a stop. If we, the mods, have to start tempbanning some people to get it to stop, we will. If we have to kick people out of this forum to get it to stop, we will do so as a last resort.

Consider this a forum wide warning for all posters.

Regarding our visitors: They often do not seem to give the typical 2p2 SSNL advice. I'm assuming you are here because you want to get better at poker? Well, take advantage of their posts. These are some creative poker minds hanging around here with little ol' us. Ask questions. Challenge them. Open up your mind a little bit. Think! about poker. Challenge their assumptions, tell them where and why they are wrong: and then LISTEN to the answer. So much of learning comes from the conversation.

And this goes for all posts, all threads on this forum. The knowledge of the posters here is astounding. As is the rigidness oftentimes. We need to start asking "why?" some more around here. Challenge people to back up their analysis. Challenge people to give more than a one sentence analysis. Challenge yourself to give more when you are responding to a hand. Sometimes a few words suffice; but there's alot of folks around here who remember the golden years of SSNL and there was a ton of great discussion happening every day.

Anyways, this writing was mostly to address the tone and the attitude and the insults creeping in to SSNL. Some have recommended that we stop with the [cheese] thread because that's a breeding ground for the balla attitude. It's under consideration. We'll take whatever measures we have to in order to keep the dialogue civil around here.

Be kind. Be humble.

--aj

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

aj why dont you just die, you ruin all the fun.

jk, i hear ya.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

sticky for a week

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

Dear Sunny, Flynn and Limon-
I for one am extremely glad you are here. It is true there are lots of Mo Fo's on this forum(including myself). But, please know that some of us(including myself) really value the opinions from Crazy-Silly-Fresh-No-Limit-Jedi-Masters.

Thanks I hope to see more of your posts, update us on your book whenever you have time.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

I'm smart enough to know that I know nothing at all

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm smart enough to know that I know nothing at all

[/ QUOTE ]
"A fool believes himself to be wise. A wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-Socrates

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by ajmargarine

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by ajmargarine

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
seruiosuly i am not generally a fan of hat true says but cmon limon is awful and matt flyyn was asking bad qauestionsd. make a post in the 'you shouc know better form' sayinh hey everyone here knows more abou t this than u so what'


and then shiop it hola as in spanish

[/ QUOTE ]

dude how drunk are you delta? pass that shizz

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
seruiosuly i am not generally a fan of hat true says but cmon limon is awful and matt flyyn was asking bad qauestionsd. make a post in the 'you shouc know better form' sayinh hey everyone here knows more abou t this than u so what'

and then shiop it hola as in spanish

[/ QUOTE ]
lol jesus, keyboard broken?

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some have recommended that we stop with the [cheese] thread because that's a breeding ground for the balla attitude. It's under consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this happens, can we at least have a "Goofyballer's blog: FEB Pt. 1/2/etc (nc)" thread? I'm not sure what I would do with myself if the only kinds of posts I could make in SSNL were productive ones.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by ajmargarine

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

BUT SERIOUYS

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

min raise that [censored]. c'mon, true was so correct with that [censored]. online =/= live so maybe limon and his old ass reg date are wrong? ZOMG and matt flynn coukd get the extra data but i doubt he would have nuymbers by now to use for a debate with true + others and i would have been there if i didn't like dinking this hits.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

if the cheese threadm iesd which is arguably the best thing ever in the world dies then so does net=eller and online poker

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

LOL, Delta is wasted

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

LOL at delta...can somebody link this thread w/ True vs Matt?

I enjoyed both of them being online today, fwiw. Thanks to the both of them.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

wwyd

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL at delta...can somebody link this thread w/ True vs Matt?

I enjoyed both of them being online today, fwiw. Thanks to the both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

THATS THE TING THEU ARE BOTH GOOD BUT MATT WAS ASKING LIKE WHY RAISE 44 PF AND WHY PLAY POKER AND EASYT WEIRD STUFF AND TRUE WAS LIKE' WTF I PWN U'

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

If you don't want Matt Flynn I'll be glad to take him and continually barrage me with these questions. It's even basic questions like that which help to build my fundamental understanding of the game.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

DELTA K FOR MOD

<font color="white"> j/k </font>

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

I cant help but feel fully resposible for this post.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

Public humiliation ftw.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

if the cheese thread is cancelled, i'm gonna poker stalk you aj untill u go busto.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
if the cheese thread is cancelled, i'm gonna poker stalk you aj untill u go busto.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

This forum is much too masturbatory at being able to spout off standard lines.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

also,

I would just like to add a few things:

I think that if we all try to explain our answers more carefully, you'll see a lot less flaming and stuff. I know that I'm just as responsible as others for short answers, but if we all try for longer answers, it will help every1. These flaming wars a lot of the time start as:

Person 1: fold
Person 2: "fold" LOL, YOU'RE A MORON
Person 1: HU for rollz

etc. etc.

Now I know that AJ is also talking a lot about how limon, matt etc have been received. Personally, I think that sunny and matt have been treated fine and that its really only limon that has had abuse directed at him. There are people who have made stupid 1 line remarks, and obv those people are just stupid in doing so. HOWEVER, I also think some of the blame lies at limon's feet. He's suggesting lines that are going very strongly against the grain of SSNL's thoughts and isn't really backing them up with much....except by saying that he has a minraising "strategy" or whatever. Now I'm sure he does and it works well, but by coming in and just showing 1 hand to minraise in and not explaining why, it doesn't really help our game.

If you have a look at the matt/true discussion about low PPs, by the end, both parties were explaining their thoughts completely and we were getting a fantastic discussion....so I certainly hope we can get more of that in the future

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

boo for cancelling cheese thread

and I think a lot of hands posted contain very, very basic errors

If someone plays a hand where they raise 7-3o utg and hit top pair and get lead into, then the obvious answer to his post would be "fold preflop"

It's also lack of people posting appropriate stats/reads/table image. A lot of people don't post reads or stats at all and those who do rarely post their table image. Their table image is just as important as their opponents preflop/flop aggression.

They also tend not to ask specific enough questions to elicit decent responses.

And honestly, why does the forum need to be all nice anyway. It's a poker forum, not a touchy feely emo forum. People post hands to get the general opinion from SSNL. People post their opinion on the hand and what should be done. If people are rude occasionally then oh well.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
if the cheese thread is cancelled, i'm gonna poker stalk you aj untill u go busto.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like he needs any more encouragement to cancel it.

Paul

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
And honestly, why does the forum need to be all nice anyway. It's a poker forum, not a touchy feely emo forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...er2/emorly.jpg

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

Also, I just went and searched for threads started between 50 and 51 weeks ago and randomly picked one started by aj just because I figured it would have a lot of replies. Check it out:

It's my first hand at the table and...

Some of you guys that are newer around here may be completely floored by something you'll notice in that thread - people can disagree with each other and be perfectly civil about it! We're all here to get better at poker, and achieving that goal is a lot easier if we can focus on that rather than proving whose dick is bigger than everyone else's. A lot of you guys that are propogating this kind of attitude really need to shut the [censored] up and learn how to get along.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I just went and searched for threads started between 50 and 51 weeks ago and randomly picked one started by aj just because I figured it would have a lot of replies. Check it out:

It's my first hand at the table and...

Some of you guys that are newer around here may be completely floored by something you'll notice in that thread - people can disagree with each other and be perfectly civil about it! We're all here to get better at poker, and achieving that goal is a lot easier if we can focus on that rather than proving whose dick is bigger than everyone else's. A lot of you guys that are propogating this kind of attitude really need to shut the [censored] up and learn how to get along.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU?

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

That wasn't directed at you or anyone specifically. I think everyone should take a look at themselves and think about whether that post describes them, though.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

Its amazing how people can screw up a perfectly fine thread...(this thread is actually a awesome example lol)

Oh yeah, I agree with AJ. Discussion and explaining WHY is MORE important than explaining WHAT to do. Poker is a game where everytime you play you face new situations, if you know how to handle yourself in 1 situation you'll screw up in the other. If you know why you do something you can apply this knowledge to each future situation and hopefully avoid mistakes....

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Public humiliation ftw.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am serious about this btw. Perfect way of showing what is acceptable and what isn't.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

AJ,

I doubt you need to hear me say this, but I agree with everything you said in your OP. I'd suggest using bans against posters who are destroying the forum. Start out with 1- or 3-day bans, and if the problem isn't corrected the bans get longer. They may eventually result in perma-bans.

No poster should be immune to the bans. This is especially important because some of the most prominent posters in SSNL are conducting themselves in a way that is bad for the forum.

Delta,

[ QUOTE ]
limon is awful and matt flyyn was asking bad qauestionsd.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good example of being bad for the forum.

Just because you don not agree with limon -- even if you are certian that he is wrong and you are right -- that doesn't give you the right to insult him and say things designed to make him feel unwelcome. Besides, you should be humble and open-minded enough to at least consider the advice of someone who came before you.

Matt wasn't asking bad questions. (Matt correct me if I'm wrong here) He wasnt asking why we raise 44 because he didn't know. (Even if he was, that's not a bad question.) He was asking that question in order to initiate a deeper debate about more than just raising 44 UTG. You should know this. If you don't, you should at the very least be civil.



Killian,

[ QUOTE ]
And honestly, why does the forum need to be all nice anyway. It's a poker forum, not a touchy feely emo forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference -- a big difference -- between not being warm-fuzzy and being hostile. One generates a civil environmment in which people feel welcome to debate issues that have already been established. The other creates an atmosphere of hate and resentment, where only accepted truths can be discussed.

Now you tell me. Which is better?




goofy,


[ QUOTE ]
We're all here to get better at poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think that one source of the attitude problems is the fact that some people are not here to improve either themselves or others at poker. I believe that some people post here in order to be right, and to be percieved as being right. There is a huge difference. Those people are a cancer to the forum and unless they are dealt with, they will kill the forum.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOL at delta...can somebody link this thread w/ True vs Matt?

I enjoyed both of them being online today, fwiw. Thanks to the both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

THATS THE TING THEU ARE BOTH GOOD BUT MATT WAS ASKING LIKE WHY RAISE 44 PF AND WHY PLAY POKER AND EASYT WEIRD STUFF AND TRUE WAS LIKE' WTF I PWN U'

[/ QUOTE ]


delta,

i usually try to be tolerant with others and treat them well. that's all i'm asking of you. no one's holding a gun to your head to be here: if it makes you mad just leave.

all of your responses have been "your questions are basic / you suck." how are you contributing to this forum?

matt

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOL at delta...can somebody link this thread w/ True vs Matt?

I enjoyed both of them being online today, fwiw. Thanks to the both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

THATS THE TING THEU ARE BOTH GOOD BUT MATT WAS ASKING LIKE WHY RAISE 44 PF AND WHY PLAY POKER AND EASYT WEIRD STUFF AND TRUE WAS LIKE' WTF I PWN U'

[/ QUOTE ]


delta,

i usually try to be tolerant with others and treat them well. that's all i'm asking of you. no one's holding a gun to your head to be here: if it makes you mad just leave.

all of your responses have been "your questions are basic / you suck." how are you contributing to this forum?

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt I guess I just think there was a better way for you to accomplish your 'point', because I certainly doubt you came here with such simple question (rather you asked them to generate a discussion) but the way you did it (in a different thread, where you came off as a new player) threw a lot of us off.

Like others have said a hundred times, if you and limon were new posters asking questions/giving advice like you did you'd be flamed even worse.

And the answer to why is that poker is a long-haul game, and not everyone is in for it. If you play 5k hands and run really well it doesn't make you a poker god, you're still a very new player with a ton of leaks (most likely)

So while your intentions may have been good to derail a good thread (or change the focus of it) seemed silly. Making a theory post where you outline your thoughts/questions to generate responses would have been a much better contribution to the forum, in my opinion.

Regardless, I'll do my best to welcome you and others here and hope everyone else does the same.

And no, almost all of my responses are well thought out and more than just 'fold you suck.' There's 3k worth of strat posts...read though them.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

delta,

Nice response. However,

[ QUOTE ]
if you and limon were new posters asking questions/giving advice like you did you'd be flamed even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was a new SSNL poster, I was never flamed like that when I posted noobish questions. If it is now acceptable to flame newbies because they are newbies, well frankly I think that sucks.

SSNL always used to be one of the most civil forums on 2p2. Now it is one of the most hostile. That is not evolution. That is bad.

Re: Tone and Flaming in SSNL: PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
delta,

Nice response. However,

[ QUOTE ]
if you and limon were new posters asking questions/giving advice like you did you'd be flamed even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was a new SSNL poster, I was never flamed like that when I posted noobish questions. If it is now acceptable to flame newbies because they are newbies, well frankly I think that sucks.

SSNL always used to be one of the most civil forums on 2p2. Now it is one of the most hostile. That is not evolution. That is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch, I think that is a natural response of some very successful posters here and the consensus that there is about 2 ways to be successful at SSNL (i think there are more, but that's not the point). When someone CC a raise pf w/ A7o there isn't really anything good about that, and lately the noise to content ratio (good posts to bad posts) has been low. There are many more poorly played hands that need simple 'fold pf, or check turn' type of responses than those that need well thought out detailed responses, hand ranges, stoves, etc. And when someone posts 'min c/r the flop', which is NOT at all how most of us play it's going to get criticized. Which, I suppose, could be seen as a lame attempt at getting the poster to justify their post.

This isn't MSNL or HSNL by any means and I certainly don't think riding the newbies is a great way to welcome them but certainly I'm guilty from time to time. I guess it's something we can all work on, to create some better unity with-in the forum.