J9o call down
 

heads-up hand, this guy appears to be decent heads-up and a little on the passive side PF. Nevertheless, he's only folded maybe 3-4 hands out of 80. He doesn't fold too much postflop either and he isn't afraid to put on the gas a bit sometimes, but I've been in the driver's seat the last few hands.

I have J9o on the button and I raise, he calls.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He checks, I bet, he raises, I call.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

He bets, I call.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

He bets, I call.

Re: J9o call down
 

Raise the river Dave

Re: J9o call down
 

I don't think I get it.

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

word...

raising J9o PF even from LP?


unless i'm missing something, you missed your straight, so why call the last bet? I'm assuming no flush.

so you have...sweet F-A (well, queen high)...why bother seeing showdown here?

i'm not trying to be sarky, but what was up here?

edit: duh, it's HU!

still don't understand it though.

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the river Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

You think Ax/Kx = 2/9 of his hands? I don't think I'm going to get a worse hand than that to fold...

I don't know if that's my required range or if I should require that Ax/Kx make up 1/9 of his hands instead... Which is the correct approach here?

edit: ninja edited because my question was super-muddled until I did that. The above was my originally intended question.

Re: J9o call down
 

NM I didn't see that it is was HU. I thought that you raised from the button and the BB called.

That said I still don't see how you can just call the river

Re: J9o call down
 

If you're showing this down, you absolutely have to raise the river. The extra 1 BB investment to knock out a hand like Ax/Kx and buy you an entire pot (7 BB) is huge. Otherwise, fold the turn.

Re: J9o call down
 

Dave

He is going to check/raise the flop with a ton of hands. Calling the river might be okay given that there are plenty of draws that didn't get there.

Also I don't know how this guy plays but the fact that he bet the river might make a call more viable. Some people will not bet if they just have bottom pair or something so when they bet there is a better then average chance that they are bluffing. Strong players will make those kind of thin value bets so against them you aren't as well off.

There are plenty of reasons to raise the river though. The 1st is that the queen is a great card for you as you could easily hold one. So if he has a small pair he is put to a tough decision. You have to bluff raise from time to time in these HU matches and this is a pretty good spot for one. Also raising is the same as calling when you have him beat so you really aren't risking 2 to win 7 (provided that he never 3-bets as a bluff). You are only risking 1 and IMO that makes it worth it to try and get A-high, K-high or even the same hand to fold.

Footnote: If you play a lot of HU you should sometimes try for a river check/raise bluff in spots like this. How sick would it have been if he check/raised the river in this hand?

The chick in my avatar is Joanna Krupa [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]

word...

raising J9o PF even from LP?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not having that Marty. Your from Scotland arent you? You can't say Word. Nor can you say Holla. (Just in case...)

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: J9o call down
 

heh.

i also say 'yo' with some degree of irony.

actually, i'm from san diego but i've been doing my phd here.

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
heh.

i also say 'yo' with some degree of irony.

actually, i'm from san diego but i've been doing my phd here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh well, if your from San Diego, your fully entitled to say 'Word', 'Holla' and 'Yo'. Even an occasional 'Dude'

In fact now I know that, I dont think your using them enough. Get on it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: J9o call down
 

*Gruncho*
Fold the flop. If not, fold the turn.
You have jack high.
If you knew that this guy is gonna c/r you on any flop, you're busted. Just fold.
Folding is +EV most of the time, at least it's EV-neutral.

Re: J9o call down
 

folding the turn is awful.

i stand by my response in HU that we should three-bet the flop and see what happens.

i'll agree that raising the river is probably better than calling but folding seems best to me without a better read about how this villain plays the river.

bbbushu

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the river Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

You think Ax/Kx = 2/9 of his hands? I don't think I'm going to get a worse hand than that to fold...

I don't know if that's my required range or if I should require that Ax/Kx make up 1/9 of his hands instead... Which is the correct approach here?

edit: ninja edited because my question was super-muddled until I did that. The above was my originally intended question.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are talking strategy/concepts here that I don't understand/don't know about. Do you have a few threads/search keys so that I might gain something out of the discu?

Re: J9o call down
 

Pot is 7BB at the time of Hero's river decision. His bluff costs 2BB. He will break even on the play if villain folds a better hand 2 out of (2 + 7) times. That's where the 2/9 came from.

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
folding the turn is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Re: J9o call down
 

aaronw,

folding the turn is bad. there's 5 bets in the pot when it's our action and we have 4 outs for the win and i think our jacks and nines are also good most of the time (a drawy flop like this opens up villain's check/raising range quite a bit).

i'd be fine giving ourselves close to the full 10 outs here but i'm sure a reduction to 8 or so because of the flush and chance they actually have a T is probably fine. implied odds on the river and a chance they don't fire the third barrel with a missed draw i think justify seeing the river.

i'll admit it's closer than i originally thought, though, after looking at the pot-size (lol, sorry just seemed automatic to me)

bbbushu

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding the turn is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
Why?

Re: J9o call down
 

You're going to get mowed down if you fold the turn. Turn the river call into a raise and this hand is perfect imo.

Re: J9o call down
 

Wow. A river raise is crazy IMO.
(How long can I still post here?)
No worse hand will fold. No better hand will call.
Why raise on the river?

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]

No worse hand will fold. No better hand will call.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea is to get the other guy to fold A high and K high.

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
i stand by my response in HU that we should three-bet the flop and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

my first thought as well. if he is drawing with a higher hand this gives your river bluff so much more meaning.

as played, one thing about raising is that at this point he is probably going to showdown for sanity's sake, particularly if you have been on a hot streak (what limit is this?). against a weak opponent a river raise could be correct.

what Kx/Ax hands is he possibly c/r the flop with? Axhh i guess.... im not sure its a large enough proportion of his range when compared to any pair, a gs or an oesd.

meh... thinking about it a little more i think it goes raise>call>fold but its all pretty close.

2 things about calling:
1) you get to see his cards, crucial in HU
2) you tilt the hell out of him if your ahead

but really just trey the flop and you dont get put in this situation.

Re: J9o call down
 

IMHO re-raising the flop is the worst option. The 2nd worst play is a turn raise but at least that has some chance of folding out a better hand. Nothing is going to fold if you 3-bet the flop. The obvious problem with raising anywhere is that we will still have a good number of outs if re-popped and our FE is low since a good % of his range are draws. It is just so unlikely that he is straight up bluffing and for that reason I don't see merit in a raise before the river.

Re: J9o call down
 

not 3betting to fold him out, 3betting to get a free turn card. honestly once he c/r the flop we have close to zero fold equity until the river regardless of what hits on the turn imo. if he was drawing he still has outs, if he hit he still thinks there is a chance he is good.

i assume that by decent player at relatively small limits we are considering that he is getting to showdown a lot, "He doesn't fold too much postflop either".

Re: J9o call down
 

[ QUOTE ]
aaronw,

folding the turn is bad. there's 5 bets in the pot when it's our action and we have 4 outs for the win and i think our jacks and nines are also good most of the time (a drawy flop like this opens up villain's check/raising range quite a bit).

i'd be fine giving ourselves close to the full 10 outs here but i'm sure a reduction to 8 or so because of the flush and chance they actually have a T is probably fine. implied odds on the river and a chance they don't fire the third barrel with a missed draw i think justify seeing the river.

i'll admit it's closer than i originally thought, though, after looking at the pot-size (lol, sorry just seemed automatic to me)

bbbushu

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go back to my original statement:

[ QUOTE ]
If you're showing this down, you absolutely have to raise the river. The extra 1 BB investment to knock out a hand like Ax/Kx and buy you an entire pot (7 BB) is huge. Otherwise, fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll admit to not playing much HU poker, and perhaps I've got it wrong, but the following lines don't make sense to me:

1) A turn call plus river fold (ie, you're just drawing)
2) a turn call plus river call (ie, playing showdown value on J-high)

I don't think you can give yourself 10 full outs here. If you think villain could be on a draw, then board texture usually indicates a flush draw, but could also be a straight draw (98/86/65) or (given the super-loose read) a gutshot draw (J9/96/85). Against the flush draw, you have only 8 outs. Against the straight draws, you often only have 7 outs. Against a pair, you're pretty good, and you get 10 outs. I still want to discount your 9 outs slightly, but your J outs are pretty clean.

I would say you've got 7-8 outs and this is a thin call on a draw. Although, now that I think about it more, the read on villain gives you 1 BB in implied odds, making a turn call/river fold slightly more appealing to me, and even acceptable... As I said, I don't play much HU.

But I still think call/call is a terrible line.

Re: J9o call down
 

aaronw,

agreed - call/call isn't too good.

shillx,

i'm advocating a flop three-bet to get a cheaper look at the river (which i'll gladly fold if bet into and i also most likely won't fire again). i'm not trying to win every hand and i don't feel like this is one we need to be particular concerned about considering the pot isn't huge (it's decent for HU but nothing to start planning a WIN THIS POT strategy on the flop for instead of just realizing our draw potential for as cheap as possible).

i'd much rather take one of your lines with a showdownable hand (at least a good pair) and just try to charge myself as little as possible with a nice healthy draw (that, as aaron did a good job of pointing out, is pretty borderline).

against "super-loose" villains, i don't think we should be foregoing my cheap-draw line to try to win the pot by bluff-raising the river.

this is kinda scrambled but i just did my stats homework and it's late [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bbbushu

Re: J9o call down
 

bbb

I don't really know how to say this but you can't always play straight in HU matches. The player in question seems like a decent enough opponent so you have to mix it up to take full advantage. At a full table you can oftentimes play every hand as if it is in a vacuum. Similar situations don't arise very often and while image is important it is generally best to maximize EV on that paticular hand. While it is oftentimes correct to take free cards in full ring play it would typically be wrong to do it if you had to play a large number of hands against the same player.

The reason why I say this is because the 3-bet/check play makes you so much easier to read. A bluff-raise might well be foolish but it figures to maximize your EV long term against a reasonable player. All a check behind does is allow him to play perfectly. Imagine playing against someone who never fires 2 barrels w/o a pair. You can make much thinner calls on the flop because you know exactly what he holds when he checks/bets the turn. Now instead of needing 10:1 for a gutshot you might only need 6:1 since there is a good chance that you will get to see 2 cards for one SB. You aren't going to 3-bet and check with a good hand so all it does is give your hand away. When you "bluff raise" you are usually going to have a strong hand. It just so happened that you were bluffing this time. That is what makes it such a strong and viable move in a HU match.

A play that I used to do a lot was the flop bet/turn check OOP. Notice the difference between that and the turn check behind. Sometimes I'd have a weak hand and other times I would be looking for a check/raise. He wouldn't know and sometimes he would give me a free card when I needed one and other times he would walk into the trap. All the check behind does is turn your hand face up.

Hope that made sense.

Re: J9o call down
 

nice post. im convinced

raise the river.

Re: J9o call down
 

shillx,

i understand (or at least know of) all that stuff you said about the differences in HU play.

i guess i should have included "do this next time you have TPNK" or something.

to be honest, i feel like it's a lot easier to balance moves like:

(a) three-bet for a free card with
(b) three-bet with a pair, planning to raise any river with
(c) three-bet with ace-high on a good board, looking to induce a bluff

than it is to mix in river bluff-raises (especially against a "super loose" opponent).

a little balance should help keep out hand from being so transparent, but i agree it's too predictable to play the same hand (and the same types of hand) in the same way. maybe the problem here is that HNRP posted a single hand from a HU match, making it basically impossible to examine in any conclusive fashion - this is why we usually post full sessions (or at least long sections) in the HU forum. because next time we're in this position - if we took your line in OP's hand - we might be best to take mine.

bbbushu