JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

wpex 2/4

villain is unknown other than i saw him steal with K3s otb a few hands ago.

hero raises JJ utg (no diamond), villain calls in bb

flop 9d 5 4d
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises, hero 3bets

turn 6d
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises, hero calls

river 4
villain bets, hero calls

i could have gone either way vs an unknown on the turn but i think my default is call down; Although as i bet the turn i said i was folding to a check-raise then called down
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] even I'm not my own boss

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

I don't fold this when there are so many pair+diamond type hands possible, but I don't know if that's correct.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

Well you weren't sure if that Villain's HU c/r on the turn meant a big made hand or a pure draw or something like a pair and a draw. I don't know either. Nobody knows. A c/r on the turn and bet on the river is usually a made hand, but some guys semibluff that way and will bet a busted draw on the river. It could be a weak made hand though too. Since you went to showdown, now you know.

Edit: Forget the above. I didn't realize what the flop play was when I wrote that.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

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Well you weren't sure if that Villain's c/r on the turn meant a big made hand or a draw. I don't know either, although a c/r on the turn and bet on the river is usually a made hand. Since you went to showdown, now you know.

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that doesnt mean i know whats right IMO though still, i just know what would have happened to be right in that instance

i refuse to be results oriented

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I'm getting a bit less than 4:1 on the call down, how often can i expect to be good vs an unknown after this action? is he ever doing this with Ad9 after i 3bet the flop or some other worse hand? probably, but often enough to make calling down here +EV UI? Should i call if the 4flush comes out or if the board doesnt pair? I have my guesses about all these things and what is correct but only helps to find out u were wrong.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

Anyone else often smooth call the flop checkraise with this type of board and action while in position to raise a safe turn? Obviously in this case that would lead me to just call down after the flop checkraise.

As played I think we have to call the turn and river unless opponent is passive/straightforward.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

i think you played this fine

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

Oh, I just realized Villain c/r'd the flop and then c/r'd the turn after you 3Bet the flop. I didn't even see that before.

You're play is to fold.

I'm sure you will get some people who like a call down. I see there are already a couple. I am telling you unequivocally that's a bad play.

I'm so sure now you lost this hand I'll bet a steak dinner against Chinese takeout with anybody that thinks you won this hand. That means I'm laying 6:1 odds but I have the best of it because the actual odds you won this hand are at least 8:1.

Getting 4:1 (your estimate, I didn't check it) to call down was not close to good enough.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

oops i actually messed up the flop action, but its interesting to hear responses on the hand with a slight variation.

the actual flop action was villain donked, hero raised, villain called then check-raised the turn.

would like to hear peoples thoughts on both ways the hand plays out, particularly if you opt for one choice one way and another another.

Interesting how that bit of difference (really not that small of a difference here) could potentially change the decision.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

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the actual flop action was villain donked, hero raised, villain called then check-raised the turn.

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OK, well this variation I go back to it's close either way without a read on your opponent. Call down if you want and get a read. Folding is OK too. Then watch how he plays including when you're not in the hand. You're not giving up much by folding. You're drawing dead at least 1 time in 4 or close to it.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

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Anyone else often smooth call the flop checkraise with this type of board and action while in position to raise a safe turn? Obviously in this case that would lead me to just call down after the flop checkraise.


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Yeah I think this is the best way to play the hand. There are so many cards that will put you in a similar tough situation as here. By just calling the flop check-raise you are guaranteed to get to SD and you can still get in a turn-raise on the cards you want to.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
oops i actually messed up the flop action, but its interesting to hear responses on the hand with a slight variation.

the actual flop action was villain donked, hero raised, villain called then check-raised the turn.

would like to hear peoples thoughts on both ways the hand plays out, particularly if you opt for one choice one way and another another.

Interesting how that bit of difference (really not that small of a difference here) could potentially change the decision.

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Well with this action, I like the way you played the hand. You haven't shown nearly as much strength so calling down seems better, IMO.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

Is easy. This calldown.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

Cash money call down, nice river.

In the simplest terms, calling down everything will lose you tons of money in this game. This is a spot where I call down and feel fine unless my spidey sense kicks in and I can raise the river or fold the turn.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

reraise the turn! It cost you the same as calling down, but you make 1 more BB when he is drawing.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
reraise the turn! It cost you the same as calling down, but you make 1 more BB when he is drawing.

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i assume you are folding to a cap?

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

Yes! This move is best when you don't have a draw and can fold to the cap!

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

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Is easy. This calldown.

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does this change for u at all miles if there were 3bets put in on the flop then he check-raises the turn or is it still a super standard calldown.

what if the river 4flushes?

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

"does this change for u at all miles if there were 3bets put in on the flop then he check-raises the turn or is it still a super standard calldown."

That's what happened here right?

If the river is another diamond, that sucks. I would call but it's probably wrong.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

actually i messed it up on the flop, i raised his donk and he called. If its a calldown the other way tho its a call down with this action as well.

I pretty much always if i call a turn check-raise on the flush card, call the river if the flush hits as well? not sure what others thought about it though.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

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i think you played this fine

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Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

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i could have gone either way vs an unknown on the turn but i think my default is call down; Although as i bet the turn i said i was folding to a check-raise then called down
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] even I'm not my own boss

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I dont go either way on this one. I call down every time against a no read on wpex. I think you played this hand well.

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

How are we not having a draw a against a 2 pair hand? Raising for a free showdown is not a good play here IMO. Putting in multiple bets on the expensive streets just to fold a 9-outer sucks a lot, no?

EDIT: 10 -> 9

Re: JJ facing turn ck-raise
 

@Oink

If he caps we don't have 9 outs! Hell, we rarely have 1. And beside we are not putting anymore bets in than calling. The turn reraise is putting villain in the position of making maximum mistakes: he could be the one folding a 9 outer and if not, he is charged max when he is the one drawing.

By the way: if he calls our raise, I raise if he bets out on a diamond river.